schooner2
03-21-2002, 03:15 PM
For those of you who are a part of the wbball email list - check out Mechelle Voepel's reply to the "Rope-A-Dope" thread. Funny and yet another who has come out to lambast Drib and all his idiotic talk.
I know several who feel Drib is actually Sue Bird's dad - Bird spelled backwards is Drib.
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about - I'll include a couple of discourses on this topic which concerns Kansas State's defense.
Original Post by Drib:
25 years ago, Muhammmed Ali defeated George Foreman in a major upset using the tactic of laying on the ropes, and absorbing huge punishment while the undefeated champion punched himself into exhaustion ( the "rope-a-dope" strategy) ....Flash forward 25 years to the second round matchup of Arkansas and Kansas State. This exciting game, played before a packed house in Manhattan (the crowd screamed for hand checking fouls 50 feet from the basket), saw an intense Arkansas defense force 19 Kansas State turnovers leading to several baskets. Kansas State used a very passive defensive strategy (Arkansas had 7 turnovers which led to almost no points). Key Arkansas players Amy Wright and Semeka Christon each played 40 minutes, and were required to play that tough man defense in addition to aggressive offense. Point guard Wright, in particularly, used great energy on several
successful offensive drives, while also applying continual full court
on-the-ball defensive pressure. Kansas State had a tenuous 3 point lead with
about 3 minutes left, when Arkansas hit the wall (a la George Foreman). In
those last minutes, the Razorbacks missed 10 of 11 shots (including several
easy three footers) while K State charged away.
Kansas State is a very interesting young team with some tremendous
offensive talents in Ohlde, Koehn, and Wecker. This team, however, is the
worst defensive team that I have seen in a long time. They play a very soft
zone, and allow lots of easy open shots. The one benefit to this style is
that the starters can play big minutes saving their energy for wonderful
offensive play (they sure don't kill themselves on defense)..
I look forward to seeing how Kansas State performs in Milwaukee,
particularly if they get by ODU and meet up with UConn. Going against that
weak defense, UConn could score 80 points in the first half, but in attempting to attack K State's vulnerable ball handling, perhaps Bird, Taurasi & company will fall from exhaustion late just like that giant George Foreman.
Dan Lewerenz responded - he is a KSU alum and AP writer. And for the life of me I can't get him to come on HoopScoop and give us some of his thoughts. Anyway, his response:
I'm not sure what you call good defense. I think there are a number of
statistics that would contradict your conclusion here:
1. Kansas State has won 25 games, and in most cases the scores have
been relatively moderate. This isn't a team like the Oklahoma men's team
in 1988 that hardly bothered to play defense because they knew they
could just run and outscore everybody. This is a team that is winning a
lot of 60-, 70- and 80-point games.
2. Kansas State has held Big 12 teams under their scoring average in
almost every game. That includes teams like Texas Tech (-10.3 in their
one meeting), which had the third-toughest schedule in the country, so
you can't exactly say these averages were inflated against weak
opponents. That includes Oklahoma (-2 and -9, despite winning both
games) and Baylor (-2.2 in the one meeting), which are athletic and
aggressive teams, the kind that, by your description, should have had a
field day against such a porous defense. In fact, in 18 regular-season
and tournament Big 12 games, only five saw teams exceed their average
against K-State (one of those five was a double-overtime game). The
numbers are below:
<pre style="font size: 10pt;">
Average* vs. KSU Difference
- Oklahoma 78.0 W-76, W-69 -2, -9
- Iowa State 77.9 L-63, W-86 -16.9, +8.1
- Colorado 77.5 L-72, W-79 -5.5, +1.5
- Baylor 77.2 L-75 -2.2
- Texas Tech 73.3 L-63 -10.3
- Texas 72.6 **L-76, L-63 **+3.4, +9.6
- Nebraska 69.8 L-71, W-67 +1.2, -2.8
- Texas A&M 68.6 L-61 -7.6
- Missouri 67.3 L-61, L-55 -6.3, -12.3
- Oklahoma State 66.2 W-68 +1.8
- Kansas 58.5 L-59, L-40 +0.5, -18.5
</pre>
* These are the statistics from the crappy official Big 12 site, which
took us ALMOST all the way through the regular season.
** Note that Texas exceeded its average in the first game, but that was
a double-overtime game.
It's true that K-State doesn't play an in-your-face, deny-at-all-costs
man-to-man defense. But that doesn't make it a poor or soft defense. And
I'm not making the argument that any defense is good if you win the game
(kind of like any shot that goes in was a good shot). The bottom line is
K-State gave up an average of 65.6 points per game - not super-low, but
certainly respectable.
and then, Mechelle Voepel's remarks, and she responds to some of Drib's ridiculous past threads:
Dan Lewerenz wrote in reponse to Drib's excoriation of K-State's defense:
I'm not sure what you call good defense. I think there are a number of
statistics that would contradict your conclusion here.
OK, I can't stay out of this one. How could Dan use something as foolish as
statistical evidence to contradict a Drib proclamation? Dan, you read the
list - you know that Drib holds these truths to be self-evident:
1. Duke will forever be overrated and couldn't beat five infants who
played zone.
2. Tennessee and Stanford force all of their injured players to come back
before they are ready.
3. Did we say Duke REALLY stinks?
4. The Big 12 actually is a joke. We reporters ask the Big 12 coaches ALL
THE TIME if they need to make the Final Four to make a statement. Of course,
they say yes, which Drib will certainly relish turning against them if
nobody does make it.
Drib, the passive-aggressive genius of stirring crap, has proclaimed
Kansas State's defense as atrocious. As Drib said, ``Stats be damned, I know
what I see.''
Who can argue that logic?
Seriously? K-State isn't a top defensive team, in part because they don't
have a lot of bodies and the ones they do have are mostly freshmen. They
still have a ton to learn to tighten that zone. If it comes to that, UConn
probably will pick it apart. It may not come to that because ODU will do it
first.
But Drib be damned, I know what I see, too (and I know the road to
Manhattan and back very well) - Wecker, Ohlde and Mahoney all have shown
defensive capability this season. To call them ``atrocious'' is silly. As is
the implication that they don't play hard on defense.
As for their shooting percentage helping them, that's probably true.
K-State has shot 49.4 percent this season. Their opponents have shot 38.5.
By the way, Wecker played only 19 minutes against Arkansas (she was in foul
trouble because of all that passive defense she was playing), but K-State
had three kids - Mahoney, Koehn and Rethman - play 40 minutes, and Ohlde
played 38.
And it's Shameka Christon, not Semeka, for Arkansas, and she is darn good.
Sorry for the long post, but it was interesting stuff to me and I wanted to share.
[This message has been edited by schooner (edited 03-21-2002).]
I know several who feel Drib is actually Sue Bird's dad - Bird spelled backwards is Drib.
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about - I'll include a couple of discourses on this topic which concerns Kansas State's defense.
Original Post by Drib:
25 years ago, Muhammmed Ali defeated George Foreman in a major upset using the tactic of laying on the ropes, and absorbing huge punishment while the undefeated champion punched himself into exhaustion ( the "rope-a-dope" strategy) ....Flash forward 25 years to the second round matchup of Arkansas and Kansas State. This exciting game, played before a packed house in Manhattan (the crowd screamed for hand checking fouls 50 feet from the basket), saw an intense Arkansas defense force 19 Kansas State turnovers leading to several baskets. Kansas State used a very passive defensive strategy (Arkansas had 7 turnovers which led to almost no points). Key Arkansas players Amy Wright and Semeka Christon each played 40 minutes, and were required to play that tough man defense in addition to aggressive offense. Point guard Wright, in particularly, used great energy on several
successful offensive drives, while also applying continual full court
on-the-ball defensive pressure. Kansas State had a tenuous 3 point lead with
about 3 minutes left, when Arkansas hit the wall (a la George Foreman). In
those last minutes, the Razorbacks missed 10 of 11 shots (including several
easy three footers) while K State charged away.
Kansas State is a very interesting young team with some tremendous
offensive talents in Ohlde, Koehn, and Wecker. This team, however, is the
worst defensive team that I have seen in a long time. They play a very soft
zone, and allow lots of easy open shots. The one benefit to this style is
that the starters can play big minutes saving their energy for wonderful
offensive play (they sure don't kill themselves on defense)..
I look forward to seeing how Kansas State performs in Milwaukee,
particularly if they get by ODU and meet up with UConn. Going against that
weak defense, UConn could score 80 points in the first half, but in attempting to attack K State's vulnerable ball handling, perhaps Bird, Taurasi & company will fall from exhaustion late just like that giant George Foreman.
Dan Lewerenz responded - he is a KSU alum and AP writer. And for the life of me I can't get him to come on HoopScoop and give us some of his thoughts. Anyway, his response:
I'm not sure what you call good defense. I think there are a number of
statistics that would contradict your conclusion here:
1. Kansas State has won 25 games, and in most cases the scores have
been relatively moderate. This isn't a team like the Oklahoma men's team
in 1988 that hardly bothered to play defense because they knew they
could just run and outscore everybody. This is a team that is winning a
lot of 60-, 70- and 80-point games.
2. Kansas State has held Big 12 teams under their scoring average in
almost every game. That includes teams like Texas Tech (-10.3 in their
one meeting), which had the third-toughest schedule in the country, so
you can't exactly say these averages were inflated against weak
opponents. That includes Oklahoma (-2 and -9, despite winning both
games) and Baylor (-2.2 in the one meeting), which are athletic and
aggressive teams, the kind that, by your description, should have had a
field day against such a porous defense. In fact, in 18 regular-season
and tournament Big 12 games, only five saw teams exceed their average
against K-State (one of those five was a double-overtime game). The
numbers are below:
<pre style="font size: 10pt;">
Average* vs. KSU Difference
- Oklahoma 78.0 W-76, W-69 -2, -9
- Iowa State 77.9 L-63, W-86 -16.9, +8.1
- Colorado 77.5 L-72, W-79 -5.5, +1.5
- Baylor 77.2 L-75 -2.2
- Texas Tech 73.3 L-63 -10.3
- Texas 72.6 **L-76, L-63 **+3.4, +9.6
- Nebraska 69.8 L-71, W-67 +1.2, -2.8
- Texas A&M 68.6 L-61 -7.6
- Missouri 67.3 L-61, L-55 -6.3, -12.3
- Oklahoma State 66.2 W-68 +1.8
- Kansas 58.5 L-59, L-40 +0.5, -18.5
</pre>
* These are the statistics from the crappy official Big 12 site, which
took us ALMOST all the way through the regular season.
** Note that Texas exceeded its average in the first game, but that was
a double-overtime game.
It's true that K-State doesn't play an in-your-face, deny-at-all-costs
man-to-man defense. But that doesn't make it a poor or soft defense. And
I'm not making the argument that any defense is good if you win the game
(kind of like any shot that goes in was a good shot). The bottom line is
K-State gave up an average of 65.6 points per game - not super-low, but
certainly respectable.
and then, Mechelle Voepel's remarks, and she responds to some of Drib's ridiculous past threads:
Dan Lewerenz wrote in reponse to Drib's excoriation of K-State's defense:
I'm not sure what you call good defense. I think there are a number of
statistics that would contradict your conclusion here.
OK, I can't stay out of this one. How could Dan use something as foolish as
statistical evidence to contradict a Drib proclamation? Dan, you read the
list - you know that Drib holds these truths to be self-evident:
1. Duke will forever be overrated and couldn't beat five infants who
played zone.
2. Tennessee and Stanford force all of their injured players to come back
before they are ready.
3. Did we say Duke REALLY stinks?
4. The Big 12 actually is a joke. We reporters ask the Big 12 coaches ALL
THE TIME if they need to make the Final Four to make a statement. Of course,
they say yes, which Drib will certainly relish turning against them if
nobody does make it.
Drib, the passive-aggressive genius of stirring crap, has proclaimed
Kansas State's defense as atrocious. As Drib said, ``Stats be damned, I know
what I see.''
Who can argue that logic?
Seriously? K-State isn't a top defensive team, in part because they don't
have a lot of bodies and the ones they do have are mostly freshmen. They
still have a ton to learn to tighten that zone. If it comes to that, UConn
probably will pick it apart. It may not come to that because ODU will do it
first.
But Drib be damned, I know what I see, too (and I know the road to
Manhattan and back very well) - Wecker, Ohlde and Mahoney all have shown
defensive capability this season. To call them ``atrocious'' is silly. As is
the implication that they don't play hard on defense.
As for their shooting percentage helping them, that's probably true.
K-State has shot 49.4 percent this season. Their opponents have shot 38.5.
By the way, Wecker played only 19 minutes against Arkansas (she was in foul
trouble because of all that passive defense she was playing), but K-State
had three kids - Mahoney, Koehn and Rethman - play 40 minutes, and Ohlde
played 38.
And it's Shameka Christon, not Semeka, for Arkansas, and she is darn good.
Sorry for the long post, but it was interesting stuff to me and I wanted to share.
[This message has been edited by schooner (edited 03-21-2002).]