Chris Marlow is an idiot and other thoughts.....

[ISU3PointLand]

Got home from the game last night at around midnight (thank you very much NCAA) and immediately rewound the videotape. My reactions from the game and televised coverage:

1. I LOST ALL RESPECT FOR ESPN DARLING DAWN STALEY. On every promo on ESPN it was "DAWN STALEY AND THE TEMPLE OWLS versus iowa state". Robin, Vera and Nell were falling all over themselves with their showering of praise for a coach who WON THE ATLANTIC 10! Dawn, try winning, in say, the BIG XII, and then we'll talk.

The Owls reminded me sooooooo much of the Jayhawks it wasn't funny. They were VERY physical and were mugging ISU players left and right. I respect a strong man-to-man defense, but not a thug-to-man defense. Also, could ESPN have gotten more reaction shots of Staley when a foul was called?

2. I THOUGHT THE REFS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE, WELL, GOOD. In the first game between BYU and Florida, we thought the game was decently officiated (despite Peter Contreras being one of the three), but the ISU/Temple game was a joke officiating wise.

First, there were NO three second calls or travelling calls, despite the OBVIOUS calls (on both sides no less). Second, how can a bump by Lindsey Wilson be called for a foul (yes, it was a foul), but then not two minutes later, Tracy Gahan being body checked by a Temple player not be called? Melanie Bremer was near-tackled under the basket by a Temple player, no foul and then when Bremer lost the ball during said near-tackle, they gave it back Temple!

When we saw Wesley Dean walk onto the court (the African-American ref), we groaned. He worked the Big XII tourney last week and was one of the worst officials there. He continued his lack-luster carrer last night. He, Gator Parrish and Laura Morris at times didn't seem to know how the game of basketball should be played. I yelled out at one time that it seemed they went to the "Ed Hightower School of Officiating". Did the officiating look bad to anyone else watching on tv? I know 9000 (contrary to the 7500 reported) Cyclone fans weren't happy with it.

3. CHRIS MARLOW IS AN IDIOT. What the hell was he doing calling last nights game? He made sooo many errors it was laughable. I was glad to see Brenda VanLengen (spelling?) doing color. The one thing Fox Sports has on ESPN is they do much better coverage of women's basketball and tonight it was very evident.

Overall I was impressed with the way ISU played through and won the game. I was thrilled with Mary's performance and hope she can keep that confidence she built last night. We didn't find out about Lindsey's grandmother being in the hospital until after the game, but that explains a little about her poor free-throw shooting performance.

Looking forward to Monday night! Hopefully BYU got their good game out of the way, so that ISU can roll into the Sweet Sixteen.

[This message has been edited by ISU3PointLand (edited 03-17-2002).]

[DblT81]

I got to watch the second half of this game and I agree about the officiating. I sat there thinking the calls were sooo one sided against ISU. Gahan gets a defensive rebound and is pounded by an owl flying in very late. Somehow Gahan holds her pivot foot even though she was hit hard. No call. Later, Wilson is just mugged bringing the ball up the court, the loose ball heads out of bounds, both players go for it and Wilson gets called for a foul even though there was no advantage to either as the collide together. Why the mugging by the owl wasn't a foul in the first place, I didn't understand.

Then, I get on the ESPN board this morning and the Big 12 Haters, (this group needs to start collecting dues and having regular meetings because they are numerous, organized, and passionate about their cause) anyway, the BTH are whining about how the officials were so one sided FOR ISU and how Temple got a raw deal from the refs. Unbelievable.

I did not see the first half of the game, so maybe the officials were compensating in the second half for being pro-ISU in the first half. Anyway, the calls against ISU in the second half were terrible calls and the NO calls on stuff Temple did was even worse.

Another good point 3ptLand makes is about the lovefest ESPN had after the game for Temple and Staley. YEEECHHH

One other comment about officiating. Anybody see Stanford/Weber St first half when Cori Enghusen(sp?) got an offensive rebound and hopped about 3 times before shooting the ball in. I was really confused why that one wasn't a travel. I guess it was the "that girl and her coach could hurt me so I won't blow my whistle" non-call.

Then a couple of possessions later a Weber St player, already on her knees, gets a clean loose ball and passes off to a teammate and that WAS a travel. I guess that one was the "that girl and her coach cannot hurt me and everybody knows that players on the floor usually travel if they aren't tied up so I will blow my whistle" call.

Last beef. Why is it in every game so far, if the ball goes out of bounds on the baseline it must go to the defensive team on that end regardless of who knocked it out? Is that the "we never know who touched it last and the team on offense this possession already had a chance so we will give it to the team on defense" call?

[YCN]

DblT81, you make some good points. Especially on the out of bounds statement, where it seems that most of the time the officials abdicate their responsibility to actually pay close attention to what is going on in the game. This isn't just an epidemic in the womens' games - it is nearly as bad in the mens'.

I can't count how many times this year I've watched the zebras call that wrong, even in cases where there was no possible way that the momentum that propelled the ball out of bounds in the first place could have possibly come from the offensive player.

IMO, it is time for the NCAA to form an officiating academy, with all officials required to attend for four years just like a university. In the first year it is the basics of officiating, the second it is intermediate officiating, in the third it is advanced officiating, and in the fourth it is the subtleties and nuances of officiating in a fair and proper manner.

The NCAA, IMO, really needs this. Some of the officiating this year has been so bad it's embarrassing.

[dem]

Originally posted by ISU3PointLand:
Robin, Vera and Nell were falling all over themselves with their showering of praise for a coach who WON THE ATLANTIC 10! Dawn, try winning, in say, the BIG XII, and then we'll talk.



Well, everybody's entitled to their own reaction to this. But, when one of the best players of all time -- one with no coaching experience -- comes in and takes a conference doormat team to the conference championship in two years, I won't begrudge her a bit of fawning admiration. Her 14th seeded team didn't back down one inch from Iowa State all night, and stayed in the game for 37 minutes -- against Iowa State, at Hilton Coliseum. They had me worried for the entire game. Pretty impressive accomplishment, if you ask me.

[tamn8or]

LOL! I noticed the same thing. My impression of an ESPN announcer:

"Welcome to Connecticut for our matchup between Iowa and Virginia. Neither team is coached by Dawn Staley. Did you know UConn is 33-0?

This should be a tough game. Debbie Ryan and Lisa Bluder are well acquainted with each other because they coached together in China last year. The tip is up, Iowa controls.

OH, LOOK! The UConn team is here to watch the game! (shot of Sue Bird picking her teeth. Meanwhile, Iowa takes a 5 point lead.) UConn is undefeated this year. Showing up for the game is really a formality for them, they're going to win it all. Nobody can beat them, just like last year.

Later tonight on ESPN2, #3 seed Iowa State faces #14 seed Temple, coached by Dawn Staley. Staley plays in the WNBA. She has two gold medals. She's almost as good as Geno Auriemma, coach of the undefeated UConn Huskies. They're here to watch the game. (Shot of Sue Bird yawning.) Staley also played at Virginia. Wait, aren't they playing this game? What game?"

(Repeat)

[YCN]

tamn8or,

your sense of humor is showing.

That was pretty flippin' hilarious! Thanks for the post!

[tamn8or]

Thanks, YCN, but I'm no Chipper. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[ChipperF1]

I LOST ALL RESPECT FOR ESPN DARLING DAWN STALEY. On every promo on ESPN it was "DAWN STALEY AND THE TEMPLE OWLS versus iowa state". Robin, Vera and Nell were falling all over themselves with their showering of praise for a coach who WON THE ATLANTIC 10! Dawn, try winning, in say, the BIG XII, and then we'll talk

Two years ago, Temple was dead last in the Atlantic 10..

Sounds like another team I know that played in Ames, Iowa circa 1995. Remember 5-22? I think you can.
Dawn Staley has done one serious job in Philly with Temple. Why begrudge her that?

But then again what can one expect from some of the Cryclone fans. If they aren't crying about the refs, they are crying about "not getting their love."
ESPN's trying to sell a ballgame, and Dawn Staley's a big name. Iowa State's getting their love and more importantly THEY WON THE GAME

http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/isu.gif Cryclones
Our tears will flood Des Moines again.

[ISU3PointLand]

Point taken Chipper, Staley should be congratuatled for getting her team to the NCAA tournament after finishing last. But the style of play that she coaches leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It isn't basketball, it's "rough-em up and we can win" basketball. Overly aggressive teams that beat up on other teams should not be rewarded by not having fouls called when they are clearly violating the rules of the game.

My beef is more with the officiating. THIS IS THE NCAA TOURNAMENT. The best referees should be working these games, not the jokers from the Big XII who are consistently bad officials. I'm growing more and more tired of seeing sub-par officiating not only during ISU games, but DURING ALL GAMES. As I've said before, when you know the officials' names, that's a bad sign.

I also take issue with the way ESPN broadcasts the tournament. As you say, they are there to "sell a game". Why not just show the games? Instead of breaking into Drake/Baylor ever 2 minutes to get Robin, Vera and Nell's "in-depth" analysis, JUST SHOW THE BALL GAME! It appears to this fan that the network has chosen a select few teams to "promote" (you can guess which teams by watching the "dance" video played at the beginning of every broadcast) and the rest of the field be damned.

I never thought I'd say this, but given a choice between watching the men's tourney and the women's on tv, I'd go with the men's. CBS actually shows the game, switches to interesting games when necessary and hires announcers who actually know what they are talking about.

Maybe all this will change next year when they have the rights to all 63 games. But until ESPN starts showing some impartiality in their coverage, I won't be encouraged.

You wanna call me a Cryclone, that's absolutely fine. But until major changes are made in the way this game is officiated and covered, I WILL NOT buy into the "Isn't this the greatest game on earth?" love fest that seems to be going around. There are serious issues in this game that need to be addressed, and it seems like no one will step up and say that.

I respect everyone's opinion on this board Chipper, but to be totally honest, I think you were hitting below the belt on this one. That's something I truly regretted seeing from you.

[ChipperF1]

I respect everyone's opinion on this board Chipper, but to be totally honest, I think you were hitting below the belt on this one. That's something I truly regretted seeing from you

Well, it seems to me everytime Iowa State has a close game or loses, Iowa State fans immediately play the "REF" card. It's off putting to me.
Temple played an aggressive defense and yes at times they did grab and hold, but the game wasn't poorly offciated one way. It was poorly officiated both ways http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif
Iowa State committed 13 fouls in the game. Temple was flagged for 19. That's 19.
In watching that game. Did Temple overtly rough up players? No! They played a determined defense and they were outgunned, and outmanned but they came to play. Give respect to that.
C'mon ISU? This is the NCAA Tournament! Teams are going to come at you. There are no Pale Sanderfraud-led quitters who are willing to just let you beat them with a wire hanger. The kids understand it, the fans have to understand it.

Now, the reason I'm cracking back is due to your Dawn Staley comment. You can dis ESPN all you want (and I'm an ESPN employee). BUT, to dis Dawn Staley and discredit what this woman has done and her place in game smacks of the very lack of gravitas and perspective that many of our friends who are UConn supporters have. I want Big 12 fans to be better than that. We have schools with proud histories and schools that are building proud histories, Iowa State. Let's be knowledgable fans, not bandwagoneers.

And ISU, I agree. ESPN's coverage as been weak, and yes I agree they need to mention more teams and got a more rounded base of knowledge. But I also remember one thing. We are dealing with East Coast people. Trying to get respect from them is pointless unless you win the games. Last night Iowa State won the game. They have 5 more to go, like every other team in this gig. Get the wins, the respect will follow.

Finally, a note to all the Big 12 haters. When you can name all 12 schools in the conference, and tell me what town they are in then you can rip all you wish. But many of you can't, so keep ya big yap shut!

I'm done. Now Iowa State, BEAT BYU!!!!!

--ChipperF1

[This message has been edited by ChipperF1 (edited 03-18-2002).]

[AirLonghorn]

Get off Dawn's case. I thought she coached a great game, as young as she is...taking a team over...inheriting the players. Good for her! What's the problem? She was fun to watch on t.v., and I thought the ESPN crew had a good "story-line." Why the sour grapes? You won easily!@ Originally posted by ISU3PointLand:
Got home from the game last night at around midnight (thank you very much NCAA) and immediately rewound the videotape. My reactions from the game and televised coverage:

1. I LOST ALL RESPECT FOR ESPN DARLING DAWN STALEY. On every promo on ESPN it was "DAWN STALEY AND THE TEMPLE OWLS versus iowa state". Robin, Vera and Nell were falling all over themselves with their showering of praise for a coach who WON THE ATLANTIC 10! Dawn, try winning, in say, the BIG XII, and then we'll talk.

The Owls reminded me sooooooo much of the Jayhawks it wasn't funny. They were VERY physical and were mugging ISU players left and right. I respect a strong man-to-man defense, but not a thug-to-man defense. Also, could ESPN have gotten more reaction shots of Staley when a foul was called?

2. I THOUGHT THE REFS WERE SUPPOSED TO BE, WELL, GOOD. In the first game between BYU and Florida, we thought the game was decently officiated (despite Peter Contreras being one of the three), but the ISU/Temple game was a joke officiating wise.

First, there were NO three second calls or travelling calls, despite the OBVIOUS calls (on both sides no less). Second, how can a bump by Lindsey Wilson be called for a foul (yes, it was a foul), but then not two minutes later, Tracy Gahan being body checked by a Temple player not be called? Melanie Bremer was near-tackled under the basket by a Temple player, no foul and then when Bremer lost the ball during said near-tackle, they gave it back Temple!

When we saw Wesley Dean walk onto the court (the African-American ref), we groaned. He worked the Big XII tourney last week and was one of the worst officials there. He continued his lack-luster carrer last night. He, Gator Parrish and Laura Morris at times didn't seem to know how the game of basketball should be played. I yelled out at one time that it seemed they went to the "Ed Hightower School of Officiating". Did the officiating look bad to anyone else watching on tv? I know 9000 (contrary to the 7500 reported) Cyclone fans weren't happy with it.

3. CHRIS MARLOW IS AN IDIOT. What the hell was he doing calling last nights game? He made sooo many errors it was laughable. I was glad to see Brenda VanLengen (spelling?) doing color. The one thing Fox Sports has on ESPN is they do much better coverage of women's basketball and tonight it was very evident.

Overall I was impressed with the way ISU played through and won the game. I was thrilled with Mary's performance and hope she can keep that confidence she built last night. We didn't find out about Lindsey's grandmother being in the hospital until after the game, but that explains a little about her poor free-throw shooting performance.

Looking forward to Monday night! Hopefully BYU got their good game out of the way, so that ISU can roll into the Sweet Sixteen.

[This message has been edited by ISU3PointLand (edited 03-17-2002).]

[Bevo]

I guess you'll have to call this Longhorn a "Cryclone", too. The ESPN coverage makes me sick.

Kudos to Brenda van Lengen on her commentary during the ISU/Temple game. It was knowledgable and insightful, without being biased in favor of ISU even though she covers the Big XII throughout the season. My question is, if ISU meets Tennessee, will Brenda get that gig? I seriously doubt it. We'll have to hear from someone fawning over Tennessee and gives an occasional word about the ISU Hawkeyes http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif. Oh, and how unfair it is that ISU is playing at home.

[This message has been edited by Bevo (edited 03-18-2002).]

[grojc]

Chipper and AirLonghorn,

I remember several years ago when UT went to the final of the Big 12 tournament upsetting Oklahoma and Texas Tech along the way only to lose to Iowa State in the Final. When Edwina Brown, who had just played a marvelous week of basketball was awarded tournament MVP, the fans booed and loudly. And they won the tournament?! I wrote a letter to one of the sports writers in Ames and she very graciously responded and criticized what she saw as a pattern of bad and spoiled behavior from the Cyclone fans. My point - I tend to agree with what you are pointing out. I think ISU fans should be on their knees thanking the NCAA's for that number 3 seed. After only finishing 6th in the conference with no top ten wins outside the conference, I cannot justify in my heads why ISU was seeded higher than UT or even Tech for that matter. They have been handed a nice gift. Being loyal to my conference, I hope they take advantage of it. And I like the coach and the players. But sometimes the fans do seem a bit too greedy.

[Bball Girl]

I have to concur with the good comments about Staley...she's done a super job with Temple in 2 short years. Smalls clearly has learned from Staley and her in your face defense proved it. Having both Staley and Rizotti both bringing their teams into the NCAAs early in their coaching careers is pretty impressive.

Temple played agressive. ISU also plays agressive in their own way.

The East coast bias may be there...but last night on ESPN all they could talk about was the Big 12 and the fact that we have 4 teams in the Sweet 16 (6 after tonight)..so we are making them sit up and take notice.

They'll yap about Tennessee and UConn until the cows come home or until a Big12 team wins the national prize!

[tamn8or]

I have a tremendous amount of respect for what Dawn Staley has done with the Temple Owls. I thought they played an excellent game in Ames and worked hard to be in it down the stretch despite the Hilton atmosphere and their foul trouble. I'm not surprised they played physical defense against ISU. In addition to it being their style of play (according to the paper, I've never seen them play before Saturday) it's the best way to get into ISU's head and force them to underperform. Ask Kansas -- they've had great success with that in the past.

I also understand why ESPN would hype a Dawn Staley-coached Temple team. Dawn Staley is a big name in women's basketball and potentially brought fans to the telecast that would not normally have watched a Temple-ISU women's game. Kansas would do well to tout themselves as a Lynette Woodard-coached team.

The hype is a little much, though. It's like listening to the same B52's song every hour for a 10 hour shift. (I used to hate Love Shack because they played it over, and over, and over and I was stuck working in a retail store and forced to listen. What humans will do for minimum wage. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif) I wasn't dissing Dawn Staley. I wasn't even dissing ESPN. I'm just expressing displeasure with the same thing, over and over and over again. It's a women's basketball coverage thing.

There are more examples of what I'm talking about -- not just Dawn Staley or UConn. Did you know Kara Lawson can bench press 235 lbs? Or that Mandy Nightengale is a champion waterskier? That kind of "human interest" story was nice the first time around but after listening to it EVERY game TN or CO plays I'm a little sick of it. It's so predictable, it's a joke. Not in a negative way, like "ESPN's coverage is a joke" but in a funny way, like "I wonder how long it will take them to talk about Mandy's skiing."

[swok34]

I did learn something new from the Kansas State/Ark announcers...
Kendra Wecker was offered a volleyball scholarship to Nebraska..
I didn't know that, and I think they were talking about Wecker.

The girl does it all....basketball, javelin, and volleyball, too.

[mred]

Originally posted by tamn8or:
I'm not surprised they played physical defense against ISU. In addition to it being their style of play (according to the paper, I've never seen them play before Saturday) it's the best way to get into ISU's head and force them to underperform. Ask Kansas -- they've had great success with that in the past.

I'm beginning to think this is something we'll have to live with. Sometimes refs will call it close, but not as often as they used to. Like it or not, the physical style of play is the direction WBB is heading.

[ISU3PointLand]

My last post on this issue.

If the officials WILL NOT call the game according to the rules as they are written in the official NCAA rulebook, then I have only one question -- why are there even officals in the game?

Rules are written for a reason.

[cctigerfan]

I mentioned this once earlier this year, but I'll mention it again. It is not the officials that are the problem. It is the conference commissioners and directors of officials that cause women's basketball to become rough. Officials will call whatever type of game the assignor or director wants called. Just like in business, you don't want to make your boss mad. Until they tell the officials that things need to be cleaned up AND will back them from start the start of the season till the end, the game will get worse. The attitude of "let the players dictate the outcome" is a bunch of crap. Let the players win the game within the framework of the rules, otherwise I am going to turn on WWF. Last night's KSU-Arkansas game was a tremendous win for the Wildcat program. I have never seen Bramlage so pumped for a women's game. However, the game itself was the worst BASKETBALL game I have ever seen. If someone would have just thrown an oblong-shaped ball in the middle we could have called it Rugby!

[KSUron]

And just in case you don't remember cctigerfan is a coach who has very recent experience as a basketball official on the college and minor league pro level. He is right and I have resolved to restrain myself from commenting on officials. This week that was hard.

[ISUbballfan]

Originally posted by grojc:
Chipper and AirLonghorn,

I remember several years ago when UT went to the final of the Big 12 tournament upsetting Oklahoma and Texas Tech along the way only to lose to Iowa State in the Final. When Edwina Brown, who had just played a marvelous week of basketball was awarded tournament MVP, the fans booed and loudly. And they won the tournament?! I wrote a letter to one of the sports writers in Ames and she very graciously responded and criticized what she saw as a pattern of bad and spoiled behavior from the Cyclone fans. My point - I tend to agree with what you are pointing out. I think ISU fans should be on their knees thanking the NCAA's for that number 3 seed. After only finishing 6th in the conference with no top ten wins outside the conference, I cannot justify in my heads why ISU was seeded higher than UT or even Tech for that matter. They have been handed a nice gift. Being loyal to my conference, I hope they take advantage of it. And I like the coach and the players. But sometimes the fans do seem a bit too greedy.

I just want to make a couple of comments on your post. I don't want to start anything so please don't flame me.

The MVP booing was poor sportsmanship on the part of Iowa State fans. The year before the MVP went to a Texas Tech player and the Iowa State fans thought that it would go to a player on the winning team. A lot of the fans had not seen the entire tournament. I hope that if this sitution would happen again that the Iowa State fans would be more respectful. Have Texas fans never made a mistake? Yes I will also include the poor actions at the Texas Tech game because I know it will come up again.

As for the fans being spoiled at that time I would disagree with because at that time we were at the start of our winnung sucess. This year at the begining of the year I could agree with you about some fans because they would have us winning it all and it the final four. I would tell them that anything could happen. Then when we lost a couple of games they were all over the team.

As for thanking the committee for getting a 3 seed all I was hoping for was atleast a four seed and most people that I talked to felt the same way. As for being spoiled who is complaining about a 3 seed.

For some fans being greed don't all the fans want their teams to win.