NCAA Says No Non-Conference Games

[YemenBear]

Hoopscoopers,

It's the quiet season. Thought I would address this question to what I view as an intelligent group. As you've probably read, the NCAA hit the Baylor men's basketball program with additional penalties regarding the program's transgressions under Coach Dave Bliss. The men's program cannot play non-conference games in either the 2005/06 season or the 2006/07 season (only one of these years....Baylor gets to choose which one). The program is on probation for 5 years.

Now the question....was the NCAA fair in its penalties against the Baylor men's programs?

Plea to Baylor fans.....please don't respond here. I'm looking for impartial, non-biased input. Still to Baylor fans, please don't feel a need to correct or inform or provide any type of input (unless asked). I'm curious to see what a group that isn't under the green & gold influence has to say.

[MsProudSooner]

I think the 'ban' on Bliss and his assistants was entirely appropriate. Coaches need to fear that they will lose their livlihood if they go too far.

I'm not as supportive of Baylor not playing their out of conference games. The NCAA seems fond of punishing those who did nothing wrong, ie the current coaches and players and that's just not right. Punish the people who broke the rules, not people who have done nothing wrong.

[TTU79]

I don't think Bliss should ever be allowed to coach basketball again. I agree with MsProudSooner re the other penalities. I don't know what I would recommend instead, but penalizing the current players and coaches for what happened in the past seems wrong. But, to be fair, that is consistently what the NCAA has done with all other programs (including Tech, I might add).

[ISUbballfan]

What I don't understand is how are they to prepare for conference games if they can't play any non-conference games? Are they just to practice and scrimage against themselves only? Has this type of penality been enforced before?

I also agree that the coaches that cause the problem should also have penalities enforced on them.

[35TangoTango]

Of all the penalities I've ever seen handed down, this has to be absolutely the stupidest!!! I hate to see this sort of thing resolved in the court system, but I think Baylor needs to contest.

They have already allowed players that were at Baylor at the time to transfer without loss of eligibility, so neither the Coaches nor the players there now are responsible in any way for this mess, and the penalty will come still further in the future (to avoid penalizing those schools who have already scheduled Baylor).

I understand the NCAA is saying that rules enforcement is the responsibility of the University itself, not just the Coaches or players, but this is ridiculous.

[Bball Girl]

I have mixed feelings. I always hate the fact that the people being punished had zero to do with the situation.

On the other hand, it could have been worse...it could have been "no games". There were a lot of violations according to the press release at Baylor.edu.

Doesn't Baylor get the scholarships back in 06/07? ...and they have recruitment activities limited for the 5 years.

If that's correct, then I think the punishment is ok...if a bit weird.

Schools can NOT be allowed to get away with stuff like this no matter how much we all like the school. Maybe a coach will think about it a bit more before doing junk like this...we can only hope.

I just hate it for Scott Drew and these kids.

[LadyBuff]

I think the punishment should follow the coach who broke the rules, not necessarily the school. It depends on whether or not the AD and the other powers that be knew what Bliss was doing. If they did, then the school needs to be punished. If they didn't, then all the punishment should fall on Bliss' shoulders. He should never coach again as far as I'm concerned.

[swok34]

I read an AP article Friday and it mentioned that SMU's football program was the only college program to receive the "death penalty". They called this punishment "near-death penalty".

I agree...it's certainly hard to see these kinds of penalties levied against many of the individuals that are no longer there........

and Bliss, or the assistant coaches involved should never coach again.

It also called Baylor a "repeat offender"....?was it the tennis team that had infractions? Also mentioned that there had been other problems in the past (before Bliss) with the men's BB program.

[OhMandy]

I think the punishment should follow the coach who broke the rules, not necessarily the school. It depends on whether or not the AD and the other powers that be knew what Bliss was doing. If they did, then the school needs to be punished. If they didn't, then all the punishment should fall on Bliss' shoulders. He should never coach again as far as I'm concerned.


The NCAA stance on this is their catch all phrase, lack of institutional control. That means the AD needs to know what is happening with all the programs under his watch.

But the NCAA in some ways "forced" Coach Bliss to commit some of these violations. That stupid 5-8 rule which means you can only sign 5 players in one year and 8 players over a two year period. The NCAA was worried about coaches running off too many players. What the 5-8 rule really did was prevent a kid from getting a scholarship. If a school already gave their share of scholarships, an unsigned kid had to keep looking for a place to play or a coach found a way to pay for the kid to get into school. That's what Bliss did.

[Jimi]

As much as I can't stand President Myles Brand in particular and NCAA rules enforcement in general I don't see any excuse for Dave Bliss. Not only did he pay players and break other rules, but he was directly involved in lying about a murder. He also tried to get others to lie, institute a coverup and shift blame to the victim. The decision under current NCAA polices is about the least they could do. I hate this for the current Baylor players and coaches, but Baylor did not, in fact, control the coach they chose to hire. It is necessary for universities to get it into their heads that character is at least as important as won-loss records in hiring.

The NCAA needs to rethink its polices. Putting all the blame on the "institutions" is not working. The policy has given us serial offenders such as Jerry Tarkanien and Rick Nuhiesal. Sure it is the fault of schools like the University of Washington for hiring these guys and not making sure there is "institutional control" but the offending coach should not even be available to hire in the first place. BOTH the school and the coaches need to be held accountable. Coaches could be banned for a year, five years or for life. AD's should also be held to account and subject to PERSONAL punishment.

Dave Bliss has no excuse and as much as it pains me to say it, Baylor is responsible for hiring him and letting him do the things he did. Taking away appearances or reducing the chance to win is about the only institutional punishment the NCAA has that can be effective. Monetary penalties could be covered by boosters or the extra revenue that winning brings. The NCAA needs to use personal penalties. The goal has to be to stop the rules infractions from happening so that no players have to go through this.

The next issue is the rules themselves and their appropriateness. When the rule book rivals the tax code in complexity and size it is itself out of control. In the Baylor case, however, the rules violations are clear and major in scope.

I am glad Baylor has an outstanding and clean women's basketball program that we are all proud of.

Sic-Em Bears!

[Texas]

IMO, as a college coach at the DII level, I feel bad for those involved considering they are in no way part of what of what happened. Here is what I do know...

I knew Carleton Dotson went to Baylor only because he was going to get side money and a car I think. We knew the whole time that he was going to Baylor because they had the best offer. Unfortunately, he had many other institutions that offered him money besides scholarship money, but they couldn't match what Baylor would do for him. A lot of people want to down Baylor for their acts, but what they don't know is that I can think of several institutions around that do the same things as much as I hate to say that.

Now, for you hard core fans, and prior athletes yourself. Can you imagine practicing for almost 3 months without the reward of a game or competition? No offense, but that stinks. Those kids will have to practice for almost nine weeks. As a coach and a former player, that would kill me. That is when practice would be unproductive and ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Baylor should be punished, but those kids don't need to be. I think the time at Baylor has been enough in itself. Bliss should be out for life, and all the kids on that team are gone. Therefore, there is no reason to punish the kids in there now. The athletic department did get a huge wake up call, and those that knew it was happening should be fired.

I know what it is like hiring and firing assistants and so forth. You can't hold me personally responsible for things that I have no control of. I know that I live by the NCAA book and I will never intentionally break any of the rules. However, it is not my player’s fault if I break the rules unless they know what is going on. Those kids are now gone, let the program rebuild itself. However, do not overlook anyone who was in administration of the boy’s basketball from top down. If they are all gone, let the new coach and team survive as it’s own, not a reflection of what has happened in the past.


Forgot to mention that I knew Dotson and Kethley personally.