You DON"T Make That Call!!!! [Archive]

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 12:54 AM

Actually, yes you do. Not incredibly uncommon to misunderstand on the internet tho, b/c the tone doesn't come through. Picture it as a kind of disgusted ironic laugh, b/c it just seems that this kind of thing has happened all year to Baylor. The game is over, and in a pretty lame sort of way, so what can we do other than laugh or cry? They both mean the same thing, it's a sucky way to lose a game.

Does no one else see the irony of yet another Baylor close game that is decided by a controversial call and free throws? It's just one of those things when you roll your eyes and shake your head.

MsProudSooner

03-29-2004, 12:54 AM

More to the point, if the ball had been at Baylor's end of the court, would the officials have called that foul on Tennessee?

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 12:54 AM

The call would not have been made if it would have put Baylor on the line....let me just put it that way. But no, it would not have been made any other time. The sad thing is OT was there to decide the best team. We'll never know, but Baylor had the Lady Vols on the ropes most of the night.

SKATERBOY

03-29-2004, 12:55 AM

Those are the breaks. Look at Texas last year against Uconn at the final 4. The bogus calls as the end cost us the game. The calls never go against those teams down the line. Thats just the name of the game in womens basketball. Its only Uconn & Tenn

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 12:57 AM

Actually, yes, I think most of the time you do see that call. Timing aside, the fact is that she rushed in and knocked down the other player. I think that normally would be called, yes. And I think they did need to go check the monitor. The issue was not whether there was a foul, but rather if that foul occurred before the end of the game. You should absolutely check the monitors for that, and in fact, that is one of the purposes for monitors listed in the rules. The question of whether a foul like that should be called at the end of the game is another question entirely, but I think that kind of contact is usually called.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 12:59 AM

AngelSong, whatever. Go post your brilliance of irony post on that other board if you feel giddy. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

BTW, the thread topic is about the last call, not Baylor missing free throws and losing close games. Start your own Baylor loses ironic thread if you must.

Edited to acknowledge that Angel DID indeed get on topic while I was composing my last post. Miracles do happen!

[This message has been edited by 40ishHorn (edited 03-28-2004).]

DBLTFarmer

03-29-2004, 12:59 AM

Im answering my question here. I believe the same call would have been made. With that in mind the officials should make the same call be it at the beginning or end of the game. Just becuase it is at the end of the game does not mean that an official doesnt make a call.

Baylor had every opportunity to win that game. Mistakes and good defense by Tennessee beat Baylor at the end not the officials. Baylor was up by 8 with about 5 minutes left and Tenn. leading scorer for the year had just fouled out. Tenn turned up the defense.

Two significant problems for Baylor. Whitaker fouling out on an offensive foul and KMR's using a 1-4 set on the last play with Statton running the one.

Marlene

03-29-2004, 01:02 AM

What about the non-call at the end of the lst half that should have gone to Baylor???

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:04 AM

It didn't appear to me that the Tenn player had any established position on the play and I will go to my grave believing that call should NOT have been made. Bring on OT instead of officials deciding a game.

How many last second shots in a crowd at the end of a game do you see a foul called at the buzzer to give a team a chance to win at the line instead of playing OT? ....NOT VERY MANY!!!! (If you have anywhere near decent refs.) http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

swok34

03-29-2004, 01:05 AM

dang.......should have been sitting in the building thinking we had overtime; KMR kept saying "over the back, over the back"...
so, we didn't know what they were looking at or what the heck was going on.

Next thing we know Tennessee is shooting free throws and the games over...

but, I got the play when I got home on Sportscenter...and the issue was whether the clock had expired before the foul was committed....

I do agree that it's wrong to call a foul with .2 seconds left on the clock and have a game be decided like that. Should have gone into overtime.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:06 AM

You're exactly right. You very rarely see a call in those situations -- but it's pretty hard to ignore a collision like that that results in a player getting knocked down. In fact, I think every time I have seen a game-deciding foul call like that, it has always been when the player was knocked down. I've seen major hacks that weren't even called, but the collision like that is hard to miss.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:09 AM

I've seen major hacks that weren't even called, but the collision like that is hard to miss.

...but easily ignored like the one to end the first half. OVERTIME!

Jelly Bean

03-29-2004, 01:09 AM

I cannot tolerate when fans say"well you would had made that
call in regulation".It is a written law in basketball that
a REFEREE keeps his whistle in his mouth and shuts it off
in at least the last 10 seconds of a game!

35TangoTango

03-29-2004, 01:11 AM

I just got back from the game, and Farmer you are wrong. Yes, Baylor had a chance to put the game away, and so did Tennessee. And we could have had the teams decide it in overtime. Instead, in the biggest travesty of officiating yet seen this year, we had an official that decided Tennessee should have a chance to shoot for the win after the game was over.

A friend who works on the clock/scoreboard crew once told me that the difference between the men's officials and the women's officials is that the men's officials prefer to be as invisible as possible, while the women's officials want to rule the game. We saw a perfect example of that tonight. That call would have never been made in a men's game, and if it had, the other two officials would have immediately over-ruled.

I would think that even the Tennessee fans, grateful as they are for the win, will have something of a bad taste in their mouths about the way it went down.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:13 AM

Well, I didn't get home until about the last 3 minutes of the game, so I didn't see the non-call at the end of the first half. I'm not really surprised tho, like you said, you rarely see a call at the end like that. I'm not saying that I think the call SHOULD have been made, but the call itself, in my opinion, was legit in and of itself. I think that call would be made at any other time in the game. Whether it should be made this late, I'm not so sure about.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:13 AM

Let's face it, the refs didn't have the cojones to face the "Summit Stare" and blew the whistle (and the call) in favor of the "mystique".

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:20 AM

I don't know about the whole "Tenn/UConn" conspiracy theory. Maybe there is some kind of plot to make sure that those teams always win. It just seems to me, from watching a lot of basketball tho, that the refs are very hesitant to blow the whistle in a close game. Texsa saw some of that last year against UConn, Stacy was hacked all over and couldn't get the call. The one think I think they don't and can't ignore is when there is a hard collision and a player goes down. And in the game tonight, if you look at the collision, I think it is clear which player was to blame. Like I said, it really sucks for a game to end this way.

vickie1ok

03-29-2004, 01:23 AM

Well, Angelsong, I would have thought you've seen enough Tenn games to know a foul is not called every time a player falls on the floor. What a ridiculous assessment.

I agree Baylor had their chances, especially when they threw that horrible pass down low at the end. But that is no excuse for that call. And, furthermore, when both players made contact and came down, there was zero time on the clock. It's plays like this that make sports guys dis the women's game. This time, I can't disagree with them.

BTW, here is the final sentence of the first AP wire story:

'An NCAA representative told reporters the officials would not be available for comment.'

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:26 AM

And in the game tonight, if you look at the collision, I think it is clear which player was to blame.

I saw two players with their feet off the ground going up for the loose ball of which neither had possession. Clearly a no call. Period.

vickie1ok

03-29-2004, 01:28 AM

Let me add one more point. I think that Tenn would have more likely won in OT because they had the momentum. But I would have liked to have seen the players resolve that, not the officials.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:28 AM

We'll never know.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:28 AM

You're creating a straw man. I didn't say that every time a player falls on the floor there is a call. However, most of the time that there is a big collision that results in someone hitting the floor, there is a whistle. The general exception is when it happens under the basket on a post up move it seems to me. And even then, if there is some momentum, there is usually a whistle (and often an offensive foul). In this case though, a player ran back onto the court, at least a couple feet going after the rebound. She collided with the TN player pretty hard, and I don't see how that can be just incidental contact. A good example of a non-call is the over-the-back call right before that, which I think we all knew we wouldn't get. I think it's less about the color of the uniforms than it is about the impact and visibility of the foul. And STILL a sucky way to end a basketball game.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:32 AM

Well if that's a no-call, then I'm glad you're not a ref. We already have a big enough problem with how rough the game is getting, we don't need more players getting hurt b/c the refs allow hard contact without calling it. And while both players had their feet off the ground, one of the players had just taken off from a short runway and went through the other.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:35 AM

Well AngelSong, you and Nancy Liebermann are about the only two in the entire universe who agree. They don't even agree with it on the Tenn boards. ESPN studio commentators were horrified, but you just keep blathering.

Funny how you don't like the refs when Tech loses, but this one was called just fine as long as BU lost. Really, you have absolutely no perspective when it comes to Baylor...just admit it. There are appropriate times in a game for a no-call situation and this is the best example I've seen in years, if not decades.

I'm done with you so head on back to the Raider boards and have a good laugh at the expense of Women's College basketball.

[This message has been edited by 40ishHorn (edited 03-28-2004).]

vickie1ok

03-29-2004, 01:37 AM

It was not that hard of a collision. You must be an official. It's like when women block shots, half the time officials will call a foul on a clean block because they think women can't do that. You must think if two gals collide, they could be childless for the rest of their lives. Give me a break. Would you call that foul on a men's team? I think not. I HOPE not.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:42 AM

Maybe I somehow lapsed into Greek with my posting. I'm not saying that it should have been called. I think I said several times that I don't know if you make that call or not. Part of me says that a collision like that could be pretty serious. Another part says that it really sucks to lose a game on a last second call like that. So I am not saying that the call should have been made. Again, I am not saying that the call should have been made.

One more time, I am not saying that the call should have been made.

But I do NOT think that the call was inherently wrong. At any other point in the game, this would be a perfectly legit call. As for questionable officiating, if you would look at my posts, usually my complaint is about refs letting the game get too rough, so I think this fits right in. I happen to think that when there is a collision caused by a player who tries to go through another player, there should be a foul called to discourage such behavior. And that is true whether it is Tech, Baylor, Tenn, UConn, or any other team playing. If we are going to have rules to keep people safe, then they should be enforced.

DBLTFarmer

03-29-2004, 01:45 AM

For the sake of the conspiracy theory for Tennessee, the ref blew the whistle at the end of the game just to put Tennessee at the line so that they could win the game. After he blew the whistle little men inside the TV monitors went to work and changed the time on the clock to be certain that time showed on the clock so that Tennessee could shoot free throws to win the game.

Sorry folks, but I disagree, that same call would have been called 95 percent of the time in games. Just because it is in the last seconds of the game does not mean you dont call it.

We constantly see complaints about officiating. Well if you want good officiating, the refs have to make calls consistantly thoughout the game.

Look at it this way, is a bad call at the end of a game any more important than a bad call in the first half?? Is a missed free throw any less important in the first half than the second half? Is a coaching mistake in the first half any less important than a coaching mistake in the second half??

vickie1ok

03-29-2004, 01:47 AM

One more time, I am not saying that the call should have been made.

You didn't say it shouldn't have been made either. Look and see what Tenn fans think; even in their bias, they are less biased than you:
http://mb8.theinsiders.com/fgridscapefrm6.showMessage?topicID=12716.topic

Row6Seat10

03-29-2004, 01:47 AM

40ishHorn is right on this one. The call should not have been made. And we should of been in overtime. Both players were in the air going for the ball, both players got a running start at the ball not just Stratton, both players wound up on the floor. It's called incidental contact and with .02 seconds on the clock the whistle should not of been blown by the officials. They should of realized the firestorm they would start by making the wrong call when they watched the replay on the monitor. It seem as if they were more interested in re-setting the clock with some time on left on it so their bogus call could stand.

Marlene

03-29-2004, 01:48 AM

Where was the consistency in the noncall that should have gone to Baylor at the end of the 1st half? The call was probably not made because it WAS at the end of the half!

Marlene

03-29-2004, 01:50 AM

Or for that matter, what about the over-the-back noncall that preceeded the call-that-should-not-have-been???

Row6Seat10

03-29-2004, 01:53 AM

The over the back call was the right call, it wasn't.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 01:53 AM

You're right, I did not say the call should have been made either. I'm not sure whether it should be made or not to be honest. We have all seen many times that calls have been made with which we disagreed, and yet most of the time, I can at least understand why such a call might occur. I don't think that the call was completely out of line, no. I don't think that it was completely unjustified, no. Do I think it was advisable? That I don't know, that's why I'm glad I'm not a ref. For what it's worth, I was rooting for Baylor in this game, and really would have loved for them to have unseated Tenn. I would have been okay with a no-call here, but that doesn't mean the call itself was inherently wrong.

Marlene

03-29-2004, 01:55 AM

AngelSong, have you though of running for political office? YOu should make a good politician.

[This message has been edited by Marlene (edited 03-28-2004).]

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 02:01 AM

LOL, somehow I doubt it http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif I have no problem saying that I really have no earthly idea on this one. It's just one of those game where you shake your head and roll your eyes. The fact of the matter is, it was a questionable call. Not in whether a foul was committed, and I didn't hear any of the ESPN people, or the TN people, or any others of the horde that is supposed to disagree with me, that challenged whether a foul had been committed. The question was about whether it should be called at this point in the game, and I don't have an answer to that question.

On a side note, I must be missing all the people that think it was a bad call on the TN board. The majority of the messages I saw said basically what I am saying. It's a rotten way to end the game, but a foul was clearly committed. Whether or not you should call that foul is up in the air.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 02:25 AM

"There should not have been a foul called at the end of this game, and I can't believe the whistle was blown. This should have been a no-call situation. There was not a foul. Both players were going for the ball, and this is a game that should have gone into overtime. This is unfortunate for all the players. In a situation like this, you have to let them dictate the outcome of the game." Nell Fortner 3/28/2004

"I hate to see a good game end like that," Summitt said. "Tonight was a situation where there were a lot of calls everybody is on edge about." ESPN.com 3/28/2004

"I don't like to see basketball games end like you all just saw," Mulkey-Robertson said. "I don't think Pat Summitt does either. Didn't she say that?

"I think you want the kids to decide the outcome of the game."

Mulkey-Robertson said this might have been the most bizarre ending she had ever been a part of.

"I don't know that I've been involved in one where the game was over and they put time back on the clock and they shot free throws," she said.

For Baylor senior forward Dionne Brown, it was a devastating way to end her college career.

"I can't blame it on one play, except the one at the end. I think overtime should have probably happened. I'm sorry. I had to say it," Brown said.

"Right there in your grasp and it gets taken away from you," she added. "You have to really look at that as a senior and shake your head." ESPN.com

"NORMAN, Okla. (AP) — Even Tennessee coach Pat Summitt hated the way this one ended."

Me too Pat, me too....

[This message has been edited by 40ishHorn (edited 03-29-2004).]

Gator

03-29-2004, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by ISUbballfan:
I have never seen refs go to a monintor to decide if to call a foul or not!!! But then we must have Uconn and Tenn in the F4!!
I'm think I'm done with basketball till next fall!

I was there and I think they went to the monitor to decide if the foul was comitted before or after the buzzer and/or how much time to put back on the clock - not to decide if to call a foul.

That being said - THAT WAS NO WAY TO END A GAME! I just wanted to cry!

GoggleGuy

03-29-2004, 02:47 AM

Silly me...I watched the first half but not the second, so I have no personal account of what happened.

So, I just want to point out one small thing from an independent observer who can't be swayed by either side because it's already in the past:

As this discussion develops, it seems like there's almost a subliminal current that there's a shift away from "was there a foul or not?" to "should the foul be called or not?" That's a question more suited to the philosophy of officiating (which is a topic that I love discussing with other referee junkies).

Oh well. I'm not going to make any comment beyond stating how I saw this discussion shaping up. The sun's still going to rise in Waco at 6:20, whether or not the officals screwed anyone over or not.

(And yes, I'll save someone pointing out that during the OU/Stanford game I asked if the moving screen was still in the rulebook or not. That frustration was more with the way the Sooners were playing than with how the referees were calling the game. But I'd much rather pick on the refs than the players, wouldn't you?)

vickie1ok

03-29-2004, 04:41 AM

GGuy, I never had any illusion that refs had any effect on the OU/Stanford game. None whatsoever. We got our rears handed to us by Stanford; ticky dot fouls here and there we can disagree with are like plankton in the sea. It simply did not matter and is not worth talking about.

On the other hand, the officials made the final play in the game of Baylor/Tennessee. That is a huge difference, my friend. Again, I will state that I think Tenn probably would have won in OT, but I think the players should have determined the outcome instead of what I or the officials think.

BearLady

03-29-2004, 08:51 AM

well, lots of discussion from our HoopScoop friends are helping me set the stage and get up the courage to watch the end of the game that I taped last night while at the game. Just have to get in focus a bit first.

I'll withhold other comments until later.

hornhooks

03-29-2004, 08:59 AM

HORRIFIC....Terrible way for Baylor to lose by an obvious no call with 0.02 seconds left. I don't feel quite so bad about TEXAS losing after watching poor play by Tennessee and Duke yesterday. Minnesota is my favorite to win it all. By the way, does anyone know the names of the two male officials that reviewed the monitor?? It's not about placing time back on the clock....it's about the foul called when replay(s) show the two were going after the ball........

One last thing.....can't wait till next year when I for one, don't have to hear about the Diana T. show, the Alena B. show etc....the love affair with these two and ESPN is sickening....

ladyhorns1fan

03-29-2004, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by ISUbballfan:
I have never seen refs go to a monintor to decide if to call a foul or not!!! But then we must have Uconn and Tenn in the F4!!
I'm think I'm done with basketball till next fall!

Me, too. Sick of all of it. Sick of Tenn and UConn same-old crap. Baylor won that game...look at ALL the stats. Stupid refs. I'm REALLY sick of the refs nationwide. Wish there was something that could be done about them.

GREAT JOB, Lady Bears.

ladyhorns1fan

03-29-2004, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by SKATERBOY:
Its only Uconn & Tenn

...and that's what makes me want to stop participating completely.

ladyhorns1fan

03-29-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by soonerman:

I would think that even the Tennessee fans, grateful as they are for the win, will have something of a bad taste in their mouths about the way it went down.

BTW, did you get a load of the two Tenn players interviewed after the game on the ESPN broadcast? Butts and Ely, I think. They looked completely stunned. It took them a minute to get into their rhetoric. It was really funny. It was about the ONLY funny thing.

centexbear

03-29-2004, 10:29 AM

Angel, you missed it. Yes the ESPN folks did think there was NO foul committed.

Look at it again, then read the rulebook below. Both players were going for the ball. No one had possession. If you watch closely enough, Stratton even touched the ball first. Both players banged into each other. You stated something about contact and an obvious foul. Please educate yourself on the rulebook(below) before arguing and taking positions on an issue.

You first said:
________________________________
Actually, yes, I think most of the time you do see that call. Timing aside, the fact is that she rushed in and knocked down the other player. The issue was not whether there was a foul, but rather if that foul occurred before the end of the game.
____________________________

Then you say:
_________________________________
The fact of the matter is, it was a questionable call.
_________________________________

You need to put down the crackpipe girl.

So you are saying what you saw on the replay was the BU player "rushing in and knocking down the other player?" REally? WOW FUnny how I don't notice that at all. In fact, I see the Baylor player touching the ball first.

Contact doesn't make a foul. That was a loose ball scramble. Neither had established any advantage or position.

Straight from the NCAA rule book:
________________________________________________
Rule 4 Section 27 (page 36)
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permit and DOES NOT constitute a foul.
ART 1: The mere fact that contact occurs DOES NOT constitute a foul.
ART 2: Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions, should not be considered illegal, EVEN IF THAT CONTACT IS SEVERE.
ARTS 3-4 deal with screens
ART 5: If, however, a player approaches a player from behind or from a position no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact, the responsibility is on the player on the unfavorable position.

Simply stated--that ref made a bad call and you are wrong Angel.

centexbear

03-29-2004, 10:42 AM

Funny that Angel is also over on the Red Raider boards arguing this same point.
http://mb10.theinsiders.com/fraiderpowerfrm5.showMessage?topicID=3885.topic

AngelSong20
Registered User
Posts: 262
(3/29/04 12:17:08 am)
Reply Re: Baylor just got totally hosed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, if you look at the replay, the UT player was pretty much straight up for the rebound. What's ironic is that it wouldn't have mattered if she got the rebound or not, .2 seconds is not enough time to get off a shot. The Baylor player came running in and completely knocked her down, and it absolutely was a foul. In fact, if you notice all the ESPN announcers, not one of them suggested that a foul was not committed. The question was, and is, should that call have been made at this point in the game? As far as I am concerned, that question is up in the air.

Angel, read the portion of the rulebook I posted. It should clear up your misconceptions of contact and rules.

catladyok

03-29-2004, 11:13 AM

If we're going to blame anybody for the way the game ended, we need to blame the NCAA rules committee, not the officials. The crew on the court last night was just going by the book, that's all.

swok34

03-29-2004, 11:22 AM

It's not about placing time back on the clock....it's about the foul called when replay(s) show the two were going after the ball

It WAS about if time had expired before the foul was committed....

Again, I say....sitting in the stands, we thought we were going to overtime. No one realized that any foul had been called, at least on my side which was away from the play.....we were a little stunned. KMR kept telling the officials "over the back", "over the back".....which, of course, made absolutely no sense to me at the time.

BearLady

03-29-2004, 12:43 PM

BTW, did you get a load of the two Tenn players interviewed after the game on the ESPN broadcast? Butts and Ely, I think. They looked completely stunned. It took them a minute to get into their rhetoric. It was really funny. It was about the ONLY funny thing.

They were probably a little stunned because, aside from the ending of the game, the place for the post-game interviews had to be moved. ESPN was going to talk with Ely, Butts and Coach Summitt courtside along where NLC and Mark Jones (?) sat, but the chorus of boos was so strong on that side, I'm sure someone realized that would not be a 'good' setting for the interviews, even if the speakers could have been heard. So they hastily moved to the end of the court closer to the Lady Vols fans.

BearLady

03-29-2004, 12:59 PM

I did watch a replay of the last 2 minutes of the game this morning before leaving for the office . . . tough, tough, tough call. The replay provided enough adrenaline to hopefully bolster my stamina to get through the day.

I'm wearing red today, as it seems to help deflect and smooth out so much redness appearing on my face!

Kim already has the perfect motivation for next year's team . . . it came from the game's ending.

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 01:51 PM

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/img/03-04/0329bu.jpg

Full color picture on the FRONT page of today's Dallas Morning News (above the fold).

Headline in the Sports Section: "Baylor Left with Foul Taste".

Foul taste indeed. Hang in there Baylor fans, your day will come!

centexbear

03-29-2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by AngelSong20:
...and I didn't hear any of the ESPN people, or the TN people, or any others of the horde that is supposed to disagree with me, that challenged whether a foul had been committed. The question was about whether it should be called at this point in the game, and I don't have an answer to that question.

Angel, you either didn't see the ESPN post game, are lying or need Q Tips. For your edification:

Post Game Quote by Nell Fortner (part of ESPN crew) -
Quote:
"There should not have been a foul called at the end of this game, and I can't believe the whistle was blown. This should have been a no-call situation. There was not a foul. Both players were going for the ball, and this is a game that should have gone into overtime. This is unfortunate for all the players. In a situation like this, you have to let them dictate the outcome of the game."

Not only did the entire ESPN team believe that there was no foul situation to begin with, even if there were, you NEVER make that call. PERIOD!

Both players were going for the ball in a loose ball scramble. The contact, who fell down, who was running faster are all irrelevant.(As I stated the Baylor player touched the ball first anyway).

If you call that foul, you have to call the over-the-back seconds before (which, as it properly wasn't, shouldn't even be called in that situation either).

The clock and timing are irrelevant as it was a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad call to begin with.

Furthermore, it doesn't appear the officials applied the NCAA rules properly when going to the monitor at the end. It talks about using the monitor to establish whether a shot has left someone's hands before the shotclock, not how much time is left when a judgemental foul is called. The language is obviously purposefully gray so their can be a CYA fallback.

YCN

03-29-2004, 02:23 PM

I guess I'll post my belated two cents worth on this top, breaking my vow of silence about officiating.

This was not a player control foul! If a Tennessee player had been fouled attempting a shot or while in possession on the court, that's fine. If a Baylor player has been fouled by a charge or an illegal block or a hold or whatever, that's fine.

But when the ball is up for grabs with neither team in possession in the final second of the game, no - you MUST not make that call. Without possession, both players are entitled to go for the ball to their heart's content, so long as no advantage is taken on an opposing player. If two people collide like freight trains while pursuing the ball, that is not a foul!

I watched several men's games over the weekend, and in all of the close finishes the whistle was put away in the final seconds of the game. Sure there were calls that could have been made, but the general understanding at that point is that players are so focused on trying to score and trying to defend that things that might be called fouls at another point in the game do not get called, because it simply isn't within the bounds of accepted rules of fair play.

Competition dictates that if the game is undecided with only moments remaining, the play on the court should dictate the winner of the game, not an official's call with 0.3 seconds remaining on a loose ball foul.

Which really wasn't a foul in the first place. I've seen a million times where players collided harder and with much more lopsided results where a whistle - properly - was never blown.

I feel terrible for Baylor's seniors, because they will never know if they could have slayed the dragon in OT. Some jackass of an official decided it would be better to blow a whistle, let Tennessee hit the winning free throws, and blow out in a big hurry one second later.

That really took guts, huh?

Ungator

03-29-2004, 02:54 PM

To paraphrase Steinlein, TANSTAAON - There ain't no such thing as an obvious no-call. Hell, the only obvious call is an out of bounds call, except when Baylor plays Texas Tech, where it becomes imaginary.

Ungator

03-29-2004, 04:30 PM

ACK!...that should be Heinlein, not Steinlein. That typo goes right back to my high school days when we had an English teacher named Steinline who liked Science Fiction.

Ungator

03-29-2004, 08:28 PM

Is the cited Section 38 applicable?

This quote is from the definition of incidental contact. In the playing rules it says under Personal Fouls:
Section 20. By Players
Art. 1. A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his or her own body into other than a normal position; nor use any unreasonably rough tactics.
Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is incidental to an attempt to play the ball.
Art. 3. A player shall not use his or her hand(s) on an opponent to inhibit the freedom of movement of the opponent in any way or to aid an opponent in starting or stopping.
Art. 4. A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than vertically so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the arm(s) occurs.

It is a matter of judgement whether Section 38 or Section 20 are applicable in this situation. Since the ball had gone past Ely at the point of contact and it looked like Ely was trying to block the pass from Stratton, an offficial could easily believe that Stratton was not trying to get the ball as much as she was trying to impede Ely. The official went one way on this, not the way most of us would have gone.

Bball Girl

03-29-2004, 09:42 PM

I fell asleep with 5 mins to go, woke up and everything was over. So, I missed everything. I now have seen the replay and agree that BU got ripped off. I saw no foul, it looked like 2 players going for the ball.

KMR showed remarkable restraint in the interview she just did with ESPN, refused to say that Tennessee always gets the breaks.

She did great.

However, she stated more than once that she thought there was an over the back foul by Tennessee and that BU was going to get a couple of freethrows.

My question for you to think about. If the foul had been called on Tennesse and Baylor got to shoot free throws and won the game...how would you all feel today. Hopefully, you would still feel the same way. This is too big a game for it to end on a call like this....this eneded the season for Baylor. One team goes on and one team goes home.

swok34

03-29-2004, 10:06 PM

My question for you to think about. If the foul had been called on Tennesse and Baylor got to shoot free throws and won the game...how would you all feel today. Hopefully, you would still feel the same way. This is too big a game for it to end on a call like this....this ended the season for Baylor. One team goes on and one team goes home

Actually, that question did come up in my section last night before we knew what was going on....and we thought Kim was arguing for a foul call...and, we all said, no way can you call a foul and have a game be decided like this http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

Of course, we had no idea that there had been a foul called on Baylor......thinking we were heading to overtime.

Interesting note: Dru Hancock was sitting on media row, not sure if she was there at the time of the play, but if she were....it would have happened right in her face.

And here's something I've never seen, probably because I didn't recognize them.....Sally Bell, one of the officials from the Stanford/Vandy game....was also sitting right there by the play, in street clothes, of course. She was in the Stanford section, which was right along that side of the court where the foul occurred.

Excepting those.......Mechelle Voepel had the bird's eye view; and I'm pretty sure she was still on media row.

YCN

03-29-2004, 10:42 PM

Ungator, there's nothing in Rule 10, Section 20 that applies in this case.

Rule 4, Section 38 applies completely, in particular Article 2: Contact that is incidental to an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or contact that results when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movement, should be permitted even though the contact may be severe or excessive.

This was a loose ball, with two players from opposing teams converging on the loose ball from different directions. There was a hard collision right at the time that the players - both of them - converged upon the ball. It doesn't matter if either player was in the process of attempting to do something with the ball once possesion was obtained, be it an attempt to retain or pass the ball. Contact was virtually simultaneous with any possession that might have been attempted, and as such, no foul occurred, and no foul should have been called.

This was a wrong ruling. This is the only time during the game that the momentary possession rule does not apply. If one player momentarily places both hands on the ball in possession of an opposing player, then that is a tied ball; but merely getting your hands onto a loose ball a tiny fraction of a second ahead of another player of equal intent to play the ball does NOT constitute possession, merely the attempt. This is reasonably implied by the "severe or excessive" provision of Section 38.

Just by being the first player to reach a loose ball gets you no favor in basketball, you must first complete some task - any task - of possession in order for the possession rule to apply.

And without possession, and without any advantage of position by either player, it is a no-call, just the physicality of normal play. This, the moment in the game, and the effect on the outcome of a game at this level of competition makes the call unconscionable. The officials would have been well-served to simply call it an inadvertent whistle, which it likely was. But instead of swallowing arrogant pride and letting the teams decide things on the court, this one official's ego would not allow that to happen.

I hope that person had a hard time sleeping last night, because whoever that person was, after seeing the replay, at which point the call could no longer be changed, then surely the official recognized the enormity of the mistake that was made.

[This message has been edited by YCN (edited 03-29-2004).]

40ishHorn

03-29-2004, 10:46 PM

My question for you to think about. If the foul had been called on Tennesse and Baylor got to shoot free throws and won the game...how would you all feel today.

Without a doubt the very same way. I saw KMR doing the over the back motion and could read her lips and I didn't think they should call over the back (nor did I think they would, it's the Lady Vols afterall). You know how I feel about what really happened.

KMR was outstanding in her interview tonight (do you think Nell and Stacy have been told to put a soft pedal on it a little), not to mention the restraint she exhibited last night after that nightmare call. I admit I didn't really care too much for KMR and I totally changed my mind about her just before the first round game with Loyola-Marymount after I read a piece about her in the paper which I posted about on 3/20:

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. – Loyola Marymount coach Julie Wilhoit's father died two years ago. She got to see her father in his final hours, thanks to the urging of Baylor's Kim Mulkey-Robertson.

Said Mulkey-Robertson: "Sometimes you're torn between your job and your family, but you know what? It should never come down to that."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/national/tournament/ncaawomen/stories/032004dnspobaylorwomdate.a332f.html
Baylor stepped up to the plate (without S. Blackmon) more than any other Big 12 team in the NCAA this year, IMHO. The way Baylor played last night and the way they handled the whole situation has made me have a lot more respect for KMR and the Baylor team. Some of their fans really turned me off during the Big 12 Tournament, so I'm surprised just how much my feelings have changed to be totally honest.

I want the name of the ref who made the call. He should never call another tournament game again, or at least not past the first round (of a Little Dribblers tournament).

Raider*61

03-29-2004, 11:07 PM

Baylor was hosed! Cheated! There was an obvious foul at halftime on Tenn that was not called . On the last play there was obviously a Tenn player over the back knocking the ball loose them the foul call on a loose ball. No doubt the game should have went into OT. Those refs should be fired and now! I feel for the Baylor players and coachs itwas just wrong.

AngelSong20

03-29-2004, 11:08 PM

Well, a lot of very interesting things here. Thank you for posting the rule about incidental contact, I think you are right about the applicability in this situation. Even so, there are other things to consider.

First of all, would it be such a horrible call if it was made at any other time in the game? Yes, we might yell about incidental contact, but we all know that the line between incidental contact and personal foul gets blurred quite a bit. Especially in the heat of the game, it can be quite difficult to make that decision. Again, glad I'm not a ref!

I still think that the main issue here is whether the call should be made or not. And as many have pointed out, that is a question of philosophy, and one that I have no answer to.

But keep this in mind. We've now seen the play in slow motion several times. Is it clearly incidental contact at full speed, seen only once? Could it be understandable for a ref to think that Butts had position and was knocked down? I think so.

And after that whistle is blown, the official can NOT use the replay for any purpose other than to see how much time should be on the clock. In fact, the rules specifically state that the replay cannot be used to determine if a foul occurred. So even if the slow motion replay showed that neither player had position, the official is, at least by the rulebook, pretty stuck in the call.

I think it's kind of interesting to note that if Stratton had let Butts have the rebound, it would have been OT. Of course, you don't realize or think about this in the game, but .2 seconds is not enough time for a shot, according to the rulebook.

One other thing that I read on the Tech board that really intrigued me. A poster there argued that Stratton never re-established herself after going out of bounds, and therefore when she touched the ball first, it should have been out of bounds to UT. Of course, that would be an incredibly difficult, if not impossible call to make in that situation, but is it at least theoretically correct?

Thank you to the ones who pointed out the relevant section about incidental contact. I still think that it would be hard to always distinguish, but at least that does shed a little more light on the matter. You learn something new every day!

BearLady

03-29-2004, 11:12 PM

And here's something I've never seen, probably because I didn't recognize them.....Sally Bell, one of the officials from the Stanford/Vandy game....was also sitting right there by the play, in street clothes, of course. She was in the Stanford section, which was right along that side of the court where the foul occurred.

swok, I've thought about what if several times today . . . what if Sally Bell had been officiating the Baylor/Tenn game instead of the Stanford/Vandy game. What would have been the outcome . . .

carolann

03-29-2004, 11:13 PM

Excellent, classy interview by KMR tonight. She had to walk the line between being sincere and honest, and saying the things she is required by her profession to say (and not saying the things that she is not allowed to say). She was smart to just walk away without a post game interview last night. Even tonight, she looked a little haggard - like she hadn't slept in a couple of days. This was a hard way for the careers of players like Jessica Stratton and Dionne Brown to end. KMR's success as a coach is just going to keep growing.