She said, she said

[FeFiFoFum]

Brawl angers coach

KU's Washington defends her players after fight at MU
By JASON KING and MIKE DeARMOND The Kansas City Star


The Big 12 will review tape of a post-game fracas Saturday that involved kicking, punching and shoving between Missouri and Kansas women's basketball players.

....I didn't want to post the entire content of the story because it's copyrighted so here's the link:
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/7688326.htm

...and here's a link where you don't have to register:
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/011204/bre_kumu.shtml


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The article also makes reference to a fight years ago between MU and Oklahoma. I don't think this kind of aggression is commonplace in women's basketball, but I can certainly see how high the stakes (and emotions) can be during conference play..perhaps contributing to an environment that is conducive to such actions. Let's hope it was an isolated incident and both teams learn from it.



[This message has been edited by FeFiFoFum (edited 01-12-2004).]

[swok34]

MU's women's program was involved in a well-publicized brawl with Oklahoma 17 years ago. It started during the post-game handshake after a 72-70 MU victory on Jan. 17, 1987, at the Hearnes Center.

Both MU and Oklahoma players were suspended after that fight.

Big 12 rules call for a one-game suspension if a player is ejected for fighting during a game. The fact that the incident happened after the game, at a point where some members of both teams were starting to move through a line of post-game congratulations, may not matter.

“I need to speak to (commissioner Kevin Weiberg) first,” Hancock said, “but I don't think he's going to give a pass on something that happened just because it didn't take place within the confines of actual game play.”

uh oh.....we may have a new Enron division.....the deliquent group....

Lauren Ervin have an attitude problem here????

"According to Washington, the incident began as players from both teams went through the handshake line. Kansas freshman Lauren Ervin, apparently in response to newspaper quotes by Missouri players regarding the Tigers' seven-game winning streak over KU, began raising her hands, celebrating and chanting, “What streak? What streak?”



[This message has been edited by swok34 (edited 01-12-2004).]

[FeFiFoFum]

Originally posted by swok34:
[b]
Lauren Ervin have an attitude problem here????


Yeah, it's called youth. She doesn't know yet that you don't smack talk, you let your playing do the work. I venture to guess that it won't happen again. I was actually suprised she would have said anything but still, no reason to respond to with a punch.

[carolann]

Thumbs up to Cindy Stein and Missouri.

[Jennifer]

Are Kansas players going to be punished at all, or is that up to the Big 12 to decide?

[FeFiFoFum]

Originally posted by Jennifer:
Are Kansas players going to be punished at all, or is that up to the Big 12 to decide?

From what I understand, Washington isn't going to punish any players. I believe it's up to the Big 12. Coach Stein didn't appear to point any fingers at KU players with regard to initiating any physical contact.

[DblT81]

If I were a coach of either team involved in this situation "initiating" would be a non issue. If a player was involved in making contact of their own accord with any player of the other team, they would be facing consequences. Who started it shouldn't matter.

I'm very disappointed in Washington's response to this incident. I say that because it is clearly indicated in one story that at least one Kansas player threw a Missouri player to the floor. Whether that was in self defense or not, that player would be facing disciplinary action. The severity of the discipline would take into consideration the circumstances.

I too applaud Stein for taking swift action with respect to her players.

[Daddo]

Originally posted by FeFiFoFum:
From what I understand, Washington isn't going to punish any players.

OK, I have two things to throw into the mix here...and it's all fairly theoretical, I felt like crap physically, and was depressed about the Rams losing, so I stayed at home...my daughter's STILL mad we didn't go.

First off, I have incredible respect for Coach Washington and have had for many many years. But unless something just about everyone is saying happened did NOT happen, it's inexcusable that she's not suspended a player or two about this. What on earth could possibly justify that? What the Mizzou players did was wrong, and they're getting punished, and KU isn't going to? That stinks, Coach.

Now, the other thing...and I SWEAR, HAND ON MY HEART, STACK OF BIBLES, WHATEVER IT TAKES...I was thinking this more than a week BEFORE this disgraceful action took place...

We always sit in the same place...I'm a good German who likes order in his life, and we always have "our" seats even though they're General Admission tickets. My daughter dragged me to sit with one of her little friends across the way, right next to the band, where I hate to sit. And as the game started, I noticed that not only did the band stand up and turn their backs to the court when the Iowa players were introduced, they were yelling stuff at the other team and officials that were way beyond appropriate.
One of the reasons I love the women's games here is the behavior of the crowd. Call me old-fashioned, but seeing actual sportsmanship, not drunken Antlers screaming filth every 30 seconds, is what I go to a game for. I LOVE that our crowd will applaud politely while the other team is introd, that we don't ride the refs (much) or scream at someone taking free throws.
When I sat on that side for the IU game, I said "They have a new band director and I am NOT happy with their behavior" to the people I was with.
And now a week or so later we hear of band members spitting at opposing players? The band at Hearnes Center women's games sits right above the enterance to the the opposing locker room.
I hope a LOT of poop gets stirred up over this one and we see some serious changes in the gameday atmosphere at Hearnes.



------------------
Fight, Tigers!

[swok34]

I agree entirely with everything you said, dblt....

and my respect for Coach Washington has dropped a notch or two.

I think the Big XII should be allowed to choose which game the Kansas players will be suspended from....because I can't imagine the Big XII not placing one game suspensions on some of the KU players.

[Dale8R]

We do have this conversation going in two topics, the other one being mizzu-kansas http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004091.html (there is a reference there to THIS topic, so now they are cross referenced)

I agree with DblT81 concerning Coach Washington's response to the situation. It is one thing to defend your players when they need defending, but another thing altogether when they are at least partially to blame.

Coach Stein has repeatedly said that it was completely unacceptable behavior on the part of her players. Washington has (as yet) said no such thing.

I finally discovered the source of the quote which Lauren Ervin kept repeating while going through the handshake line.

Quote from article at Inside Mizzou.com http://missouri.theinsiders.com/2/222105.html Kansas (8-5, 1-1 Big 12) was apparently upset about a comment freshman point guard Blair Hardiek made in the Columbia Daily Tribune about how Missouri (9-4, 0-2) was sure to beat the Jayhawks.

So what you have is one Freshman responding to comments made by another Freshman. I expect it will be the last time for either, especially Ervin.

From Mechelle Voepel's article: Oklahoma coach Sherri Coale said. “I will definitely remind (the players) of the appropriate way to act before, during and after games.”

I think all Big 12 Coaches would do well to follow her lead ~~ I expect most of them will, come to think of it. No, make that ALL coaches everywhere. Too often we think of such code of conduct remidners AFTER the need arises.

**********************************************

Added: Reminder to self, reminders is spelled r-e-m-i-n-d-e-r-s, not remidners

Oh, and I started my response before the last two posts, or I would have agreed with them, too.

It also looks like I did not make myself quite clear enough when I said the two Freshman likely would not do it again, especially Ervin. By that I had in mind that it is one thing to write something boastful in a newspaper, quite another to say something in a supposedly friendly handshake line. So I was making the distinction that Ervin's comments were more inflammatory than Hardiek's.



[This message has been edited by Dale8R (edited 01-14-2004).]

[Jennifer]

I agree w/ Dbt, daddo, and swok. I am really surprised that Washington has not mentioned punishing her players. That is uncalled for.
Kudos for the way Stein has handled this situation.

And, I'm sure I may get some backlash for this, but while I respect what Washington has done in the past, I would really really be suprised to see this behavior out of a Sherri Coale coached team, (and Deb Patterson, Marsha Sharp, Jody Condradt, Bill Fennelly, Ceal Berry coached teams as well). And it does suprise me to see Missouri players involved in this, but I'm not at all surprised about Kansas.

(ducking here...but that's my opinion and it's really not worth much. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif)

[FeFiFoFum]

Originally posted by Jennifer:
I'm not at all surprised about Kansas.


No need to duck, but surely you'd like to explain your opinion a bit more? I've been at KU games the past 10+ years, are you implying that KU players are dirty or prone to this kind of behavior? Do you have some inside info or facts on their behavior that the rest of us don't?


ETA: Coach Washington has the choice of suspending her players just like Coach Stein does and did, they all have discretion to decide what counts as inappropriate behavior. From my view of the tape, it looked like some shoving and pushing on both sides..not anything I would suspend a player for in the heat of an argument. It's not like there hasn't been scuffles in women's basketball before. I did not see any KU player throw a punch, something I would suspend a player for and what Coach Stein suspended her players for. And if we start suspending players for smack talking like Ervin did, there'd be lots of butts on the bench around the country. Immature and stupid? You bet. A suspension offense? Hardly.


[This message has been edited by FeFiFoFum (edited 01-14-2004).]

[Daddo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jennifer:
And it does suprise me to see Missouri players involved in this, but I'm not at all surprised about Kansas.

[QUOTE]

My opinion on Washington is based on personal experience. When I did MU women's hoops for TV (just a few games, several years ago) I interviewed Washington before the game. She went out of her way to be accomidating and seemed to be a genuinely nice lady.
That's it. It's hardy firm footing for a strong opinion one way or the other about a person's character, I know.
And frankly I really don't know Cindy THAT well to just be able to say "This is definately like her" or not like her, but from what I've seen while she is tough as hell she expects better from her players and when she doesn't get it she acts decisively, predictably, fairly, and quickly.
I have an 11-year-old at home who thinks Cindy hung the moon, and she dreams of playing for her on that floor someday (a dream that will, of course, be dashed to bits...when she plays for Mizzou, it will be in the new arena, not Hearnes, which REALLY ticks her off because of all the great memories she has in Hearnes) and believe me, if there was anything going on here with Stein or her assistants that made me think they weren't good role models for my daughter, I'd notice. Silly old-fashioned ideals of sportsmanship still mean something to me, and I've never seen anything from Cindy Stein that caused me to worry about her in that department. She's a strong lady with a lot of class.

[Jennifer]

My opinion is based on perception of players in recent years. Again, I'm not judging Washington per se, but I am not surprised to see acts of 'thuggery' from her team. My perception well indeed may be wrong (well, not entirely since this incident did happen), but that's just what went through my head when I heard about this.
There. I'm not making any personal attacks, I'm not putting any players down, I'm just saying that I am not surprised by this, but I would be surprised to see it at other places (OU for example, since that's the team I follow the closest).

[swok34]

I can't think of ANY coach in the Big XII that would have taken Washington's route and not dished out their own punishments. Watching the tape of the incident, Cindy Stein was physically restraining a player. Discipline is the coach's job and I can think of two examples of in-game situations.

During a game here in Norman this year, Caton was getting rough-handled during a game....and Caton (ok, there's no way to make this sound pretty) body slammed the girl to the ground...
Caton got a technical....Sherri immediately pulled her and Caton got one h*ll of "the glare". Caton did not start the second half of the game.

I was watching the Duke/North Carolina game the other day, and North Carolina has got an awesome freshmen...Ivory Latta. Latta was getting frustrated and a little "testy" and the coach pulled her out and made her sit awhile until she cooled down.

[FeFiFoFum]

Originally posted by Jennifer:
My opinion is based on perception of players in recent years. Again, I'm not judging Washington per se, but I am not surprised to see acts of 'thuggery' from her team.

So you're saying that there were KU players in recent years committing acts of "thuggery"? Got some names and dates of said acts? If you're going to make these kinds of inflammatory claims, I would expect you would have the facts to back them up.

I wonder if someone came on here and insinuated the same thing about Texas players or Colorado players or Texas Tech players..you think it'd stand unchallenged? Point is, unless you've got some facts, I don't appreciate the characterization of KU's team, players, and coach you've made. Qualifying it as your opinion doesn't make it any less insulting to KU fans or the team/coach.

[swok34]

Lynn Pride, though I will say Pride usually got a technical AND Washington pulled her out of the game.

[FeFiFoFum]

The term "thuggery" has racist connotations in my book so perhaps we might want to step back and characterize behavior in a less inflammatory manner.

[mred]

Originally posted by swok34:
Lynn Pride, though I will say Pride usually got a technical AND Washington pulled her out of the game.

I think everyone has their own favorite Lynn Pride story...

[mred]

Originally posted by FeFiFoFum:
The term "thuggery" has racist connotations in my book so perhaps we might want to step back and characterize behavior in a less inflammatory manner.

I don't consider it a racial word at all. However, dictionary.com does say it specifically refers to a group of assassins from northern India...

[This message has been edited by mred (edited 01-14-2004).]

[Bball Girl]

What bothers me is that Coach Washington doesn't appear to be taking responsibility for her team's behavior. She seemed to be justifying Ervin's taunting by saying MU players were giving KU players the finger...were they?

"I can assure you — and I don't care what it looked like — there is no way in the world that my players started anything with Missouri"

But they joined in the fracas...

Stein is taking responsibility by suspending a couple players.

Ervin has 4 long years left in the Big 12 and that kind of taunting can come back to haunt her and KU.

I'd like to see Washington sit Ervin for a game to teach her a lesson too. That would send multiple messages to MU, KU and the Big 12.

During the conference call, Coach Washington was somewhat apologetic for her emotional response but I don't remember her saying...hey we were to blame too.

Hopefully Stein and the AD are having a long hard talk with the MU band...spitting is unacceptable and I believe violates the Big 12 and NCAA guidelines.

[This message has been edited by Bball Girl (edited 01-14-2004).]

[FeFiFoFum]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bball Girl:
What bothers me is that Coach Washington doesn't appear to be taking responsibility for her team's behavior.

We're not sure what she is doing behind closed doors though I do agree her post-game statements don't acknowledge that it takes two to tango and KU's players aren't entirely innocent. Now whether she thinks their behavior warrants a suspension is up for debate and I can certainly see why people want her to follow Stein's example. Do you suspend a player for smack talk? Do you suspend her for pushing a player that rushes in and throw a punch? Who should be suspended? Can you tell from the videotape because I can't.

Ervin has 4 long years left in the Big 12 and that kind of taunting can come back to haunt her and KU.
I'd like to see Washington sit Ervin for a game to teach her a lesson too. That would send multiple messages to MU, KU and the Big 12.

Agreed. Though what she said ("What streak?") was pretty mild and indicative of the 'Border War' rivalry between the teams. She'll certainly have a hard time if she doesn't mature quickly and learn to keep her mouth shut just like any other freshman player out there.

During the conference call, Coach Washington was somewhat apologetic for her emotional response but I don't remember her saying...hey we were to blame too.

I'd like to see her come out and say that taunting was and is wrong and that she won't tolerate it. I don't expect her to say that her players were wrong for defending themselves against punches being thrown.



[This message has been edited by FeFiFoFum (edited 01-14-2004).]

[Jennifer]

Originally posted by FeFiFoFum:
The term "thuggery" has racist connotations in my book so perhaps we might want to step back and characterize behavior in a less inflammatory manner.

I almost parenthesized my use of 'thuggery' with the comment that I wasn't an english major and my math inclined mind couldn't think of a better word, but didn't. However, I assure you that no racist connotations were intended. Heck, my own brother and his buddies are all thugs in my book...
Anyhow, the fighting, throwing fists, etc. is an act of 'thuggery' in my opinion, no matter what color your skin.

So you're saying that there were KU players in recent years committing acts of "thuggery"? Got some names and dates of said acts? If you're going to make these kinds of inflammatory claims, I would expect you would have the facts to back them up.

No, I didn't say that. I said my perception, based on recent years, led me to not be surprised about this latest incident.

Point is, unless you've got some facts, I don't appreciate the characterization of KU's team, players, and coach you've made. Qualifying it as your opinion doesn't make it any less insulting to KU fans or the team/coach.

It's not like i said this team was a bunch of low life criminals or something, for which there would be facts to back it up.
I watch games, I read articles, and I form an opinion. That's that. If this incident hadn't of happened, I never would have said a word...it's just that in light of what happened, I realized that I wasn't suprised and said as much.

And I really don't think anyone on the Kansas team really gives a hoot about what some anonymous person on a bulletin board thinks.

OK, I'm going to step away from this for now. This is getting redundant. I stated my opinion, as I'm entitled to do, and I'll leave it at that.

[This message has been edited by Jennifer (edited 01-14-2004).]

[FeFiFoFum]

That's cool, we can agree to disagree re: your characterization of the KU program.

And the "thuggery" thing, I just don't like to see it associated with women's basketball because most times it's thrown around in the media in reference to negative things such gangs and the "thug life" or rap which is generally associated with black folks. I didn't like to see it on boards in reference to that whole Latasha Byears thing out in LA either. When someone says "she's a thug", it's very unlikely a picture of someone white comes to mind..I don't think it has a place in this particular discussion. If you object to KU or MU or Texas or Oklahoma etc players because you believe that they are unsportsman-like or engage in unsportsmanlike behaviors, then call it that, no need to bring in a loaded word like 'thuggery'.

[Row6Seat10]

Here's the Big 12 conference's suspensions handed down today:
http://big12sports.ocsn.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/011404aab.html

[swok34]

I think the Big XII did a great job with this....don't seemed to have missed a beat anywhere.

Three Kansas student-athletes have been suspended for one game each. Kansas junior forward Kandis Bonner was suspended for kicking a Missouri student-athlete and sophomore forward/center Tamara Ransburg received a suspension for attempting to strike a Missouri student-athlete. Junior guard Larisha Graves was suspended for grabbing a Missouri student-athlete from behind during the altercation and causing the opponent to fall to the court. In addition, Kansas freshman forward Lauren Ervin received a public reprimand for taunting the Missouri team after the game.

The Big 12 Conference has suspended Missouri senior guard MyEsha Perkins and sophomore center Christelle N'Garsanet for one game each for their attempts to strike members of the Kansas team. Missouri added another game suspension to Ms. Perkins' penalty.

In addition, the Big 12 noted that Kansas head coach Marian Washington made public comments that were contrary to Conference policy. Commissioner Kevin Weiberg stated: "I am pleased that University of Kansas Athletic Director Lew Perkins has adequately addressed this issue with Coach Washington.

"Further, the issues raised publicly were not the cause of the unsporting behavior by players, based upon the information available at this time," added Weiberg. "Finally, it appears that Missouri game management worked to prevent further escalation of the incident in an appropriate manner."







[This message has been edited by swok34 (edited 01-14-2004).]

[cyfanatic]

Originally posted by swok34:
Lynn Pride, though I will say Pride usually got a technical AND Washington pulled her out of the game.

Add Jackson to the list, too.