OU/GW thread...

[YCN]

OU looked good early in this game, but they are just turning over the ball again and again, largely unforced errors.

In addition, they are getting the ball inside, but timidity is preventing them from attacking the hoop; they just keep kicking the ball back out.

Down by 14, the Sooners have a large hill to climb with 14 minutes remaining.

[YCN]

Also, the Sooners have been aggressive defensively, but by over-pursuing the ball they have been leaving people open repeatedly for uncontested 3 point shots.

[ISUbballfan]

Oklahoma is only down by 1.

[YCN]

Well, the Sooners have emerged from their haze of endless turnovers to rally to within one with lots of time remaining.

It's anybody's game at this point, and being in Norman, I'd say it has to favor the home team.

GW has a very large center in Ugo Oha, but she is very slow and not a particularly good defender. I wish the Sooners would try to go past her for scores, or run a few pick and rolls.

[YCN]

Since OU has gotten within one, they've missed at least 3 FT's, while GW just hit 2. That hurts.

[YCN]

Dionnah Jackson has a mind-boggling 11 turnovers on her own. She tries really hard, like Maria, but they both are just slightly on the wrong side of out-of-control too much. Even if OU gets by GW, they don't have a chance against Villanova unless their play dramatically improves.

[Bball Girl]

Dang it OU...you're messing up my bracket. Thought for sure OU would take out GW in Norman, but not to be. Lots of turnovers really hurt...

[YCN]

Well, the season ends pretty much as I espected it to, with a flurry of rather unfocused effort immersed in a thick stew of turnovers.

I'm not terribly disappointed with their season, because they are so young and had 3 season-ending injuries; but I guess I feel a bit hollow about their accomplishments. I really felt like this team could have achieved so much more, in spite of their handicaps.

But I don't know how a coach teaches a team not to turn the ball over when everyone turns it over. You bench a player for careless play, the next player in plays even more carelessly. Very frustrating to me, and no doubt to Coach Coale.

I sincerely hope that the Sooners grow up a lot in the next few months, as they think back on what could have been. If OU doesn't make dramatic improvement in their approach to the game, OU will disappoint next year, even with the return of our injured players and more talent coming in.

Well, that's a streak of 3 straight Sweet Sixteens that has come to an end, so now it's time to start thinking about what it takes to start a new one.

[swok34]

I think GW found the weakness in OU that no one had discovered......pressure Dionnah the entire game and wear her out.

There's no one else on this team that can handle the ball under pressure like Dionnah. Dionnah was whipped; I saw Sherri put Luce in for her and ask Dionnah if she were tired.

But, not to worry, we got a nifty little point guard coming next year http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

I really think their youth showed tonite; couldn't understand why Chelsi just didn't jack the danged thing up....they were guarding so closely, the couldn't have helped but foul. And Beky, heck she was wide open underneath the basket and wouldn't just put the danged thing up.

It was a great ride though, much more than THIS fan expected. I think they did a great job this season to have made the tourney with their youth and inexperience.

But, I have a feeling it's going to be one deserted place come Tuesday Nite. Before the game, I was planning on attending......not sure I wouldn't rather stay home and watch the other Big XII teams on TV. They already have my money http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

And, YCN.......go back and look at the turnovers for the past three years. OU's always been a high turnover team because of the run and gun style they play........youthful mistakes are very, very correctable.



[This message has been edited by swok34 (edited 03-23-2003).]

[catladyok]

Man, was that ever UGLY! Oh well, there's always next season. I still have faith in this little rookie squad.

And I thought that the refs did a great job tonight down in Norman. Lots of fouls were called in the OU game, but lots of fouls were committed. I'm usually the first to scream about bad officiating, but not tonight. They were very consistent and they tried to let the kids play. (But what can you do when they keep throwing the ball away like that?)

The three who officiated the St.Francis/Villanova game are some the best I've ever seen. They should come to Norman more often!

[schooner2]

Originally posted by YCN:
I sincerely hope that the Sooners grow up a lot in the next few months, as they think back on what could have been. If OU doesn't make dramatic improvement in their approach to the game, OU will disappoint next year, even with the return of our injured players and more talent coming in.

I also have to totally disagree with this statement. You can go back and calculate OU's turnovers per game (using data from soonersports.com) for the last several seasons. Here's the last four seasons:

2002-03: 19.6 turnovers/game
2001-02: 17.8
2000-01: 19.6
1999-00: 18.6

Considering how young they are this past season, their to/game is pretty much right in line with the past. Even last year they averaged nearly 18 a game and went all the way to the championship game.

BUT, you know we always just chalk up turnovers to the style of play and we can even accept them as long as the tempo is being forced etc. I bought in to that all along. However, I'm not so sure anymore. So OU went to the national championship game averaging nearly 18 turnovers per game. But when I look at the OU men's team this season, it's amazing how few turnovers they make. If they have more than 12 a game, it's considered a very ugly game. They averaged 11.9 per game this season. And this is a team that will run at you if you let them. They can play at any tempo you like.

I just feel, even if run and gun is the name of the game, that OU should be able to reduce that average to around 15 a game. It's just never been done.

[GoggleGuy]

Originally posted by catladyok:
And I thought that the refs did a great job tonight down in Norman. Lots of fouls were called in the OU game, but lots of fouls were committed. I'm usually the first to scream about bad officiating, but not tonight. They were very consistent and they tried to let the kids play.

I have to disagree. Sure it's easy to miss a bang-bang play every now and then, but this crew seemed to mess up every single charge-block call that they possibly could. Out of bounds calls seemed consistently incorrect, and there's a big difference between letting teams play and ignoring blatent fouls. An elbow to the side, a shove to the ground, a charge that is met with a "get up off the floor" gesture by the referee, that's a lot different than ignoring a simple handcheck. The big run that GW put together in the second half seemed built entirely on miscalls and no-calls.

That being said, Oklahoma was defeated by George Washington; they weren't screwed by the referees. After all, if Beky Preston had made just one of the three consecutive free throws that she missed it's a completely different game.

I'm still headed to the game on Tuesday. It'll be a quality game, even if the Sooners aren't going to be in it.

[schooner2]

About the game. Kudos to George Washington, they are a really good team - better than I expected. That 2-3 minute stretch where they went up 53-41 - that was just some outstanding basketball by the Colonials. OU kept battling back - and I was a little surprised at how well they came back. I could easily envision OU struggling for the remainder of the game - but they fought hard.

This team is so young. The youngest in the Big 12. Can't help but wonder just how good they will be next year barring another barage of injuries. And this team will be deep. Only thing is, KSU, UT, and TTU also have a majority of their players back as well.

The Big 12 will be back in a big way next season. KSU, UT, and TTU all TOP 10. Sooners I think should be back to TOP 15 - again, if we don't have so many dadgum season-ending injuries.

[dem]

Originally posted by schooner:


I just feel, even if run and gun is the name of the game, that OU should be able to reduce that average to around 15 a game. It's just never been done.


Just for perspective, I can add that Bill Fennelly has set a goal of 14 turnovers per game for Iowa State. This past season they averaged 14.9, which was a substantial improvement over last season. (Of course, ISU offense was WAY down this season . . .)

[swok34]

Googleguy......I found the officiating inconsistent between the two halves. In the first half, they were letting them play, which I suspect was to OU's advantage.....then, they were calling everything. If I recall correctly, this particular play resulted in GW calling a timeout.....and look closely, that's Chelsi down at the bottom of this dogpile with an arm sticking out....

http://photos.newsok.com/ou032303/images/1230814.jpg

I stayed up and watched the game again after I got home, a very, very entertaining game. I didn't think it was an ugly game in the least. Dionnah got a majority of her turnovers trying to baseball pass it into the frontcourt because of the pressure defense....and the passes were getting picked off. OU allowed Jackson to turn on the gas and run the ball up the court. And, I think this is where GW found a weakness. Dionnah is the only player who can handle the ball in the open court with speed....
others players have the speed but not the ball handling ability in the open court...other players have the ball handling ability but not the speed.

[This message has been edited by swok34 (edited 03-24-2003).]

[Jennifer]

Rookie center Beky Preston missed three straight foul shots when OU trailed 57-54 with less than seven minutes left. Preston finishes the season shooting 36.3 percent from the line.

Ouch!!!
Free throws and unforced TO's. Hopefully both will improve next season.

On Big 12...I'm still hoping for at least 2 FF teams!!!

[swok34]

Beky's a terrible FT shooter...ditto Wadsworth.....have been throughout the entire season this year. Maria really picked up her percentage in Big XII, but wasn't very accurate in preconference.....ditto, Dionnah. Now, Chelsi and Theresa....
cha-ching http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

[Bball Girl]

Only got to see the last few minutes, but Maria was awesome.
They are a young team that took a lot of hits during this year, still held up their heads and kept playing hard.

The Sooners have heart albeit young heart...but heart plus talent and skill will take you a lot further than just talent and skill. They had a huge number of turnovers against A&M last year and still made it to the final 2.

They'll be ready next year.

[35TangoTango]

Originally posted by schooner:
You can go back and calculate OU's turnovers per game (using data from soonersports.com) for the last several seasons. Here's the last four seasons:

2002-03: 19.6 turnovers/game
2001-02: 17.8
2000-01: 19.6
1999-00: 18.6

Considering how young they are this past season, their to/game is pretty much right in line with the past.

What has changed this year is the nature of the turnovers. Before, we had Stacey throwing behind the back passes to the security guard in the third row. This year, we have people dribbling the ball off their foot. I saw that at least three times during last night's game.

The two problems that really killed us last night were (1) bad free throw shooting (11-19 to GW's 18-20), and (2) too many times where we just passed the ball around aimlessly around the perimeter, or in to the post and right back out - no attack plan, no go-to player.

On the other hand, the single biggest plus I saw, one which bodes well for next year was Beky's rebounding. She was just mean! If she got a hand on the ball, it was hers! Obviously benefitting from the Stacey Hansmeyer finesse school of defensive play. If she can just learn to play offense with that same attitude....

[labcoatguy]

Dionnah Jackson was one rebound away from a triple double. Unfortunately, one of those categories was turnovers.

[Jennifer]

On a bright note, OU had 19 assists on 22 made buckets and outrebounded a bigger team by 10.

[YCN]

I'm not about to say that there aren't a lot of positives to be taken from this season. We've seen development from Beky Preston in the post, and development that is likely to accelerate next year when playing alongside Caton Hill.

We've seen Chelsi Welch grow from a raw freshman into a confident swing player who can make a difference in any game.

We've had a bunch of young players get very valuable playing time very early in their careers; playing time that will no doubt be valuable as we look down the road.

That doesn't mean I'm supposed to be in the least bit happy that my basketball team turned over the ball more than 210 other NCAA teams this year. You would think that the up-tempo style of play would help force turnovers by their opponents, but OU ranked behind 149 teams in steals this year.

Up-tempo meant a lot of wide open layups and uncontested jumpers, which actually helped OU to have the 112th best field goal percentage in the nation, instead of something even worse. These are facts, not fiction. There are many other statistics that are nearly as ugly.

The Sooners played without great focus this year, almost as if winning was an afterthought to them. I'm happy if the team is having fun playing ball, but I'm not happy if they are having fun and losing at the same time. And losing is something they did an uncomfortable number of times this year.

Yes, the Sooners almost won 20 games this year, but only a couple of wins came against teams that OU was not favored to beat. We will see next year how far this team progresses, but if they don't have a strong desire to win, then they will be a mediocre team. Teams that get better have a desire to win, but if the Sooners improved more than other Big 12 teams during the season this year, I didn't see it.

Sorry to be such a stick in the mud, but no matter what anyone says, I'm never going to be even close to happy with a team that turns over the ball more than once for every minute of possession time. It reflects on a lack of team committment to play good ball, a relative disinterest in having pride in team accomplishment.

I guess I wouldn't be a very good coach, since I wouldn't tolerate the type of undisciplined play I saw so much of the time this year.

Guess I'll just have to stick to solitaire.

[vickie1ok]

YCN,you make some good points, my man. It's one thing to make these kind of turnovers at the beginning of the year, but to continue in that vein through to the bitter end is ridiculous.

Of course, I remember in the first few years when Stacy Dales shot balls into the stand as much or more than to her teammates! In addition to discipline, I think this team really lacked leadership. They could not get over the hump over teams who were better than them at any occasion.

Maybe Sherri needs to adopt the discipline of Kelvin's teams and he could certainly use some uptempo of her teams.

Regardless, I look forward to next year as long as Caton can play effectively. We will need her senior leadership.

[YCN]

vickie, I have just one question to ask you (and I know I've been a bit harsh on the Sooners, but that is the taskmaster in me speaking...) - are you going to stick around, or are you going to go away from us again?

We miss you terribly around here. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/frown.gif

[vickie1ok]

I've missed you guys too, YCN. My computer crashed last November, and I just got another one last week. I occassionally lurked on the board here and at OUFANS from my work internet, but I'm so busy at work I don't have time to do that much. But, yes, I'm back! And happy to be so.

I think one thing that was frustrating about the Sooners this year is that you felt if Theresa, Maria, Dionnah, Chelsea and Beky all played well in the same game, they could be dynomite! Maybe next year they will find that chemistry.

[catladyok]

Tonight we are going to find out just who the 'real' OU fans are.
They won't be in the LNC tonight because the Sooners aren't playing. The fans who show up (like me and SWOK) are just basketball junkies. If there's a game and we have a ticket we'll be there no matter what. We're disappointed that our team isn't going to play, but that won't keep us away. We'll still dig the game.

I'm going to yell for GW. Hey, if the Sooners couldn't beat them then I don't want anyone else to beat them, either!

I wonder how many folks will actually show up? It should be interesting! This is another reason why pre-determined sites are kind of a bad idea. If the host team is a low seed, that's going to hurt ticket sales at the beginning. And if they don't advance to round 2, then a lot of the people who bought tickets won't show up. Personally, I feel that the top 4 seeds in each region should host the 1st and 2nd rounds. They've earned it, and besides, the crowds will be larger (in general).

[swok34]

The fans who show up (like me and SWOK) are just basketball junkies

Actually, swok has decided that since OU already has swok's money and can't see the reasoning that her butt in a seat helps the OU program........she's staying home to catch the Texas/Arkansas game on TV....I couldn't decide the last couple of days. I really want to the see the UCSB/Texas Tech game and the KSU/Notre Dame game....they don't conflict, but the TX/ARK game time does.......half of that decision was I couldn't go to basketball on Tuesday nite and softball on Wednesday nite.......

So the OU softball team wins my attendance for the week.

[35TangoTango]

Originally posted by YCN:

The Sooners played without great focus this year, almost as if winning was an afterthought to them. I'm happy if the team is having fun playing ball, but I'm not happy if they are having fun and losing at the same time.

Judging from the looks on the faces after Monday night's game, that is not the case.

And losing is something they did an uncomfortable number of times this year.

It's nice to have high standards, but let's be realistic. As a benchmark, Tech the year before lost their Naismith candidate and finished 8-8 for 6th place in the conference. OU this year graduated four starters, lost their Naismith candidate and three other players and finished 9-7 for 5th place.


Yes, the Sooners almost won 20 games this year, but only a couple of wins came against teams that OU was not favored to beat.

Nice that people had high expectations of us.

We will see next year how far this team progresses, but if they don't have a strong desire to win, then they will be a mediocre team. Teams that get better have a desire to win

You're sounding a little like a Gail Gestenkors half-time speech here. Unfortunately, it takes more than desire. It takes talent, experience, and leadership - those were the things OU was missing.

but if the Sooners improved more than other Big 12 teams during the season this year, I didn't see it.

I agree - I thought they lost confidence in themselves a little at the end.

Sorry to be such a stick in the mud, but no matter what anyone says, I'm never going to be even close to happy with a team that turns over the ball more than once for every minute of possession time.

I agree here also - If you have a real solution that doesn't totally destroy the offensive style, I'm sure Sherri would put you on the payroll.

It reflects on a lack of team committment to play good ball, a relative disinterest in having pride in team accomplishment.

bs - at least IMO

Here's what my take is.

(1) The team really lacks a strong, experienced, go-to player. When the wheels start to come off a little, Tech just gets the ball to Plenette. Texas has a really good and experienced point guard in Jaime, or they can throw it in the middle to Stacey. Colorado at the end of the season had Tera. All these teams have an automatic out when panic begins to set in - OU has none.

(2) Lack of shooters and a really strong offensive post player. OU needed more dribble penetration to score, which resulted in more turnovers.

(3) Both point guarding and leadership are new things to Dionnah. In high school, she was a one-girl show, all steals and layups. She's had to learn how to distribute and run an offense, and at the same time switch over on defense and be a power forward. She also hasn't been comfortable being the leader - she'd much rather (I think) have someone else running the show and let her do her part. With all the responsibility thrust on her, she sometimes has periods of mental melt-down.

(4) Mari has 22 years of bad habits to unlearn. She's making progress, but she's not there yet.

(5 - and I think this is the heart of the turnover problem) The college game is MUCH faster than the high school game. Inexperienced players often suffer from the "paralysis of analysis". "What should I do? Shoot, penetrate, pass, dribble aimlessly around the perimeter?" By the time they make their mind up, the defense is all over them. So the coaches try to get them to make these decisions automatically without interrupting the flow of the play. Sometimes (all too often) this leads to wrong decisions and turnovers. The long-term solution is experience. There are obviously short-term remedies for this, but would the cure be worse than the illness?

(6) Finally, OU is a defense-first team. And that is an area where they have both shined and improved during the year. Maybe next year we get an offense to go with it!

Guess I'll just have to stick to solitaire.

No way!

[labcoatguy]

Oh I'll certainly be there at the GWU/Nova game, sans lab coat.

gooO G Dub
gooO G Dub

[swok34]

very good points, soonerman.

I think the largest key or lack thereof this year was having no true leader on the floor. Dionnah tried to assume the role, but she's not suited to be *the* leader..and it affected her game trying to assume that role. I think Chelsi tried to assume parts of that role, but she's a freshman and it's truly difficult for a freshmen to *step* into that role. Caton Hill has been a captain since her sophomore year, if I'm not mistake. She flourishes in that role; I also think we could have seen Erin Higgins as a *leader*. Caton and Erin are two of the most *vocal* players I've seen on the team this year.....

and guess what........they were also our primary offensive perimeter threats.

Sherri told a recruiting story back in February on her radio show about a girl she went to watch. The girl's father was the assistant coach and told Sherri, the girl had banged her knee and they were probably not going to play her. At halftime, the girl's team was down by 17; Sherri suggested they stick the player in there and allow the other 4 teammates to actually play "around" her......the girl's presence was so huge, the opposing team completely froze up and the girl's team won by 7.

It's difficult to estimate the value of a player, and I know Caton's scoring and rebounding were missed, but what this team truly never found.....was their leader, Caton, who couldn't be on the floor and couldn't lead from the bench.

[35TangoTango]

Today's Daily Oklahoman on this same subject

So the Sooners lost three players during the season and finished one spot lower than their preseason pick (of course there were those of us who thought they would finish considerably higher than fourth).
http://www.newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=1003412&pic=none&TP=getsooners