Coach Coale to be on Outside the Lines Sunday a.m.

[Jennifer]

http://soonersports.ocsn.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/030103aab.html

Coale To Appear On Outside the Lines Sunday
Women's basketball protest topic of discussion Sunday morning on ESPN at 9:30 a.m. CST.


March 1, 2003

Norman, Okla. - The University of Oklahoma women's basketball coach Sherri Coale will be a guest on ESPN Outside the Lines Sunday morning (March 2) at 9:30 a.m. CST. Outside the Lines is hosted by veteran journalist Bob Ley, the Emmy Award-winning show can be found exclusively on ESPN.

The topic of discussion will be Toni Smith. Smith, a women's basketball player at Manhattanville College (New York), stands quietly facing away from the American flag during the playing of the pregame National Anthem before her collegiate games in protest. The sociology major previously released a 250-word statement outlining the reasons for her protest, citing "the inequalities that are embedded into the American system'' and "the war America will soon be entering.''

Coale will be joined via satellite by Tommie Smith, who silently protested during the 1968 Olympic games in Mexico City.

[Jennifer]

I stayed off of the other thread about the protest of the player who turns her back to the flag.

However, I think she is a disgrace to her team, her school, her fellow Americans, and most importantly, to all the men and women overseas who are defending our country, as well as all the ones who have in the past. It just angers me inside when someone disgraces the flag and all that it stands for.

I think there are other ways to show your feelings against war. If she thinks the American system is so 'inequal' then I wish that she'd pack her bags and get the hell out.

[snizave]

Personally, I've always hated the "you better like it or get out!" opinion that so many people have. It's OK to have a dissenting opinion, and her methods have been pretty damned effective to have the whole nation talking about it. I salute her.

[Jennifer]

Originally posted by snizave:
Personally, I've always hated the "you better like it or get out!" opinion that so many people have. It's OK to have a dissenting opinion, and her methods have been pretty damned effective to have the whole nation talking about it. I salute her.

I have no problem with someone having a dissenting opinion. As people who know me say, I'm a pretty even keeled person and generally see things in gray, not all black or all white.
However, turning one's back on the flag is like a slap in the face to all who have served and are serving our country.

[Cyclones Rule]

I just watched the outside the lines program. I am proud that the big 12 conference has people like Sherri Coale. I was glad to see her on the show, and I second everything she said. I didn't like the fact though that they got two other people who are on Toni Smith's side on the show to drown out Sherri's comments. Go Big 12 and God Bless the USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[35TangoTango]

Well, I thought Sherri made some good points about the team coming before the individual.

It was evident from the whole show that the least considered persons in the whole affair were Toni's teammates. Toni certainly didn't ask their permission before she started her protest, and the coach and the Manhattan administration certainly sent them the message that they were obligated to let the protest go on.

[Jennifer]

Originally posted by soonerman:
Well, I thought Sherri made some good points about the team coming before the individual.

It was evident from the whole show that the least considered persons in the whole affair were Toni's teammates. Toni certainly didn't ask their permission before she started her protest, and the coach and the Manhattan administration certainly sent them the message that they were obligated to let the protest go on.

Agreed. I thought Coach Coale made some excellent points.

And the guy who said Toni's turning her back on the flag was patriotic??? Whatever.

[ISU3PointLand]

Since when is it unpatriotic to express an opinion? I am tired of people saying that she is disrespecting the flag. Guess what people, it's a piece of cloth. It is our fundamental right as Americans to believe what we wish and our right to express our opinions without the fear of retribution by the government.

I take serious issue with the argument that soldiers died for the flag. No, they died defending democracy, freedom and the Constitution. In no other country do you see the national flag idolized as much as the American Flag.

I may not agree with the manner in which Toni Smith chooses to protest, but I will defend to the death, her RIGHT to express her opinions. She is an American and the day that she loses that right to voice her displeasure with our government is the day we lose the cherished liberties that so many of our men and women have died for.

[swok34]

I thought it was an excellent program.....I agree with the "player" and her right to express herself; though as Sherri Coale said, "her team should come first", and I don't agree with the "platform" of which this player choose to express her views.

It has affected her teammates and the chemistry of the team and that's not fair for the other ?14 players on the team.

[MsProudSooner]

Sherri was 100% correct. The girl has every right to protest whatever she wants - on her own time! Her behaviour is completely selfish and disrespectful to her teammates and coach.

If ESPN wanted someone to be the counterpoint to Sherri, they should have found someone who could speak coherantly.

[This message has been edited by MsProudSooner (edited 03-02-2003).]

[Bball Girl]

Sorry I missed the program and I too stayed off the other thread. The bottom line is that we want to live it free democratic country, we have to protect and uphold that freedom even for opinions we disagree with. That's the America I believe in and support and defend.

[elfdenmom]

Yes, she has a right to protest, but people who disagree with her have an equal right to protest and to express their views. So if you support her right for her to have her say, you should not object to the responses of those who are deeply offended by her actions and speak and act accordingly.

Her teammates are apparently not in agreement with her since they have not joined in her protest, but they are muzzled by the coach and administration.

[Jennifer]

I don't have a problem with her protesting, per se. It's her disrespect of the flag and national anthem that bothers me. I guess I'm to emotional (and maybe patriotic?) as I can't stand and listen to the anthem and look at the flag and not get teary eyed. It moves me. I think of my uncle who died in service. I think of all the families now who have a mom or dad, husband or wife, son or daughter, serving their country.

If she wants to go out and march around her school with anti-war propaganda, go for it. Just don't disrespect the flag and all the positive things it stands for in the process. Yes, I know she thinks the flag represents oppression. I'll just chalk that up to innocent, idealistic youth. Maybe she should go spend some time in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Ethiopia, where citizens don't have it quite as good as we do (especially women, in the first 3), and then see how she feels about the flag and what it represents.

And isu3ptland: I take serious issue with the argument that soldiers died for the flag. No, they died defending democracy, freedom and the Constitution. In no other country do you see the national flag idolized as much as the American Flag.

To me, the flag represents democracy, freedom, and the constitution. It's much more than a piece of cloth.

[This message has been edited by Jennifer (edited 03-02-2003).]

[Bball Girl]

I understand people being offended, there are other ways to protest by turning away from the flag..after all that flag is what protects that freedom of expression that she's protesting. I think her method leaves a lot to be desired.

And everyone can express all the opinions in the the world they want as long as they don't try to suppress some one else' opinion and their right to express that opinion.

There are many people "serving" this country who choose to do so in other ways by serving in the armed forces. And there are many people with family being deployed right now who support their loved one and may not agree with or support this military action.

It's your choice how you choose to take something. So you can take it as a slap in the face or you can take it for what it is...a young person looking for a public way to display her opinion.

My point is this...this country to was built by people who disagreed with the status quo, who had the guts enough to stand up and publicly display their opionions...look at the civil rights movement for heavens sake. If everyone had sat nicely on their hands...who the heck knows where we would be now.

If it were not for the people who disagree with the status quo this country wouldn't exist in the first place and we wouldn't be enjoying women's basketball played at the level we take for granted today because the "status quo" thought young women would injure themselves if they played full court.

[CyRox98]

Originally posted by Bball Girl:
And everyone can express all the opinions in the the world they want as long as they don't try to suppress some one else' opinion and their right to express that opinion.

This pretty much says it all and is something some people might choose to remember when making a point. ALL opinions expressed here are valid. Keep in mind that your point of reference on the subject may be vastly different from that of another.

Could Smith find a better venue for her protest? Probably. But I believe the point remains that she lives in a country that allows her the freedom to express her dissatisfaction with our government in a way guaranteed to her by the Constitution. As Americans we have the right, whether we ever fought for the United States or not, to speak out against what we believe to be right OR wrong, as is the case with Toni Smith or anyone voicing their opinion here.



[This message has been edited by CyRox98 (edited 03-02-2003).]

[35TangoTango]

Miss Smith is filled with the naive idealism that you might expect a senior sociology major taught in New York to have. Her speeches and rhetoric are dogmatic in the extreme, and she certainly has no interest in rational dialog or opposing points of view. But heck, that's part of what college is about.

I think we all (or at least most of us) agree that she has the right as an American to express her point of view, even if she offends some of us in the process.

I have to agree with Coach Coale, though, that when she becomes a member of a team, and when she puts on the uniform of the school, she takes on additional obligations irrespective of her first amendment rights.

Her obligation as a representative of the school is kind of a moot point, since the administration has given their approval. She has certainly failed in her obligation to her teammates - she didn't ask their permission; and the coach apparently didn't either. Most if not all of her teammates are opposed to her point of view. There have been rancor-filled practices with elbows thrown. One of the teammates has a brother in the military who is due to ship out at any time. How insensitive can this girl be to the people she is supposed to be closest to?

So if we're going to discuss this further, let's not talk about her rights or obligations as an American - I think we are pretty much in agreement on that. Let's discuss what obligations a player has to her team and her school.


Now that I think about it, I saw (and heard) demonstrations during the National Anthem at the last two Big 12 games I attended; by OU's Caton Hill on Wednesday and OSU's Thea Willis on Saturday, each of whom sang the National Anthem. In addition to expressing their first amendment rights, presumably they had the permission of both their teammates and their schools.

[ChipperF1]

"Miss Smith is filled with the naive idealism that you might expect a senior sociology major taught in New York to have. Her speeches and rhetoric are dogmatic in the extreme, and she certainly has no interest in rational dialog or opposing points of view.

That would be equal as someone from Connecticut or New York saying that some conservative kid going to the University of Oklahoma is filled with the "Dittohead right wing rhetoric one might expect from a kid who was taught in Oklahoma."

Both left and right are full of rhetoric and dogma in the extreme, soonerman.

That is an interesting statement. I grew up born and raised in conservative right-wing Nebraska and am definitely more to the conservative side compared to quite a few of my neighbors where I live now. However I'm largely in agreement with this young lady. I don't agree with her tactics, I do think her cause is sound.

Now I do agree 100% with coach Coale who did a fine job on OTL Weekly. I my mind, she carried the debate. To me, there are better ways to protest and more effective ways. In my mind, when you step onto the ballfield, it should be about the game nothing else matters. It should be about the team.

"There have been rancor-filled practices with elbows thrown. One of the teammates has a brother in the military who is due to ship out at any time. How insensitive can this girl be to the people she is supposed to be closest to?

The big question here is who throwing the elbows? This is where a coach has to step in and get to the derma of problem. We don't know whole situation, so why immediately blame the kid in question?
Right now, I have relatives in the Middle East, in military service, in harms way. Three of my best friends from my youth in Afghanistan, going cave to cave. I'm anti-war and they know it. In e-mails we've talked about it. They don't agree with me. I wish they weren't over there, but does it make me "insensitive"? No, and it doesn't in this case with this kid in my view.

"Let's discuss what obligations a player has to her team and her school.

Her obligations to her team are obvious. Play hard, and in the game's I've seen, despite all the media circus and hype and all the screaming fans in counter protest, she's held up her end.
She has the obligation to be a good teammate. That's each individual players opinion. Again, from what I've seen, while players individually don't agree, they've been supportive.

However, she also has an obligation to her own conscience and it should be just as unwavering. I wouldn't want a teammate or friend who was any less, as long as that personal conscience doesn't negatively effect what the goal is, and that goal is winning. And that is true no matter which side of the line you are on politically, socially, whatever.

I have three rules regarding issues such as these:

1. The extremes on both side usually get it wrong. Be it the anti-American tofu-eating, screaming banshee, neosocialist left or the anti-American right-wing, dead-wrong, Fox News Channel neofascist right.

2. Your right to dissent ends where my nose begins. This is Toni Smith only breech in my nose. Her dissent is in her entire team's nose when she brings onto the ball floor.
But also, some of the noisy and sometimes threatening counter-protest equally breaks this rule.

3. We can disagree without being disagreeable or insulting. That means coming up to somebody in a military uniform and yelling "baby killer" is WRONG. But the older gentleman who approached me in the parking lot and felt the need to vehemently comment on the anti-war bumper sticker on my car is equally WRONG!

A point to ponder: Jennifer said "If she wants to go out and march around her school with anti-war propaganda.

Why is thought critical of the policies of our country immediately considered "propaganda", but supporting thought is considered "patriotic" or "well thought out."?

Don't flame me for asking. I'm just asking.

[snizave]

Ditto. See, I can be a dittohead, too http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

[35TangoTango]

Chipper:

I said - "Miss Smith is filled with the naive idealism that you might expect a senior sociology major taught in New York to have. Her speeches and rhetoric are dogmatic in the extreme, and she certainly has no interest in rational dialog or opposing points of view. But heck, that's part of what college is about."

You said - "That would be equal as someone from Connecticut or New York saying that some conservative kid going to the University of Oklahoma is filled with the "Dittohead right wing rhetoric one might expect from a kid who was taught in Oklahoma."

My bad for not being able to resist the jab at New York. Take out the words "taught in New York", and read the rest - particularly "That's what college is about". My actual intent was to defend her both her right to have her views (which go far beyond the war) and to be passionate about them.

Chipper Said: "I wish they weren't over there, but does it make me "insensitive"? No, and it doesn't in this case with this kid in my view."

No Chipper, that wish (which I share with you) doesn't make either you or her insensitive. What does make her insensitive is the way she is publicly slapping her teammates in the face with her position on the corruption of America. And some of them made it quite clear in the interviews that that's how they felt.

Chipper said: "The big question here is who throwing the elbows? This is where a coach has to step in and get to the derma of problem. We don't know whole situation, so why immediately blame the kid in question?"

Again, I agree with you. The failure here is not Toni's but that of her (and her teammates') coach and administration, who by tacit approval have allowed her postition to become the position of the team (regardless of how others on the team feel)and the school.

Chipper said: "Her dissent is in her entire team's nose when she brings (it) onto the ball floor."

Amen

Chipper said: "Why is thought critical of the policies of our country immediately considered "propaganda", but supporting thought is considered "patriotic" or "well thought out."?

History is written by the winners

[grojc]

Jennifer, if the flag represents"democracy, freedom, and the constitution," you should be applauding this young lady, don't you think? If we are so willing to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq, why are we so upset when someone chooses to practice it at home?

[Sooner Sailor]

I thought Coach Coale did an excellent job expressing her opinion--one that I share--and I am glad we have a Coach like her at OU and in the Big XII.

[elfdenmom]

You know, it is curious how things have evolved over the past few years, and what is now considered "free speech" and legitimate protest.

The girl in question is permitted to show her contempt for her country by turning her back on the flag, publishing her manifesto, and appearing on countless talk shows around the country, but her team mates are required to, in effect, support her stance without being offered an equal opportunity to express their disagreement with her. People who take offense at what she has done (e.g. the Merchant Marine students) should not express their deep disagreement and displeasure with her views because that infringes upon Ms. Smith's freedom of expression. On the other hand I do believe that a certain community in California declared it illegal to display the flag, and a certain singer was
denied the right to sing a patriotic song at a fund raiser because that might offend some people.

I can go anywhere, anytime (including schools) and spew abuse, obscenities and hatred and promote rape and murder and attacks on firemen and police officers, and I am only excercising "freedom of speech", but I am not allowed to refer to God in reverent manner because that might offend somebody.

This is not an appropriate forum for this, but I think I will just go ahead and excercise my right of "freedom of speech."

I do love God even though I have no idea what the purpose is of many of His/Her actions. I am deeply offended that I can not express this love where, when, and how I choose.

I do love my country even though we have never had an administration whose policies I totally agree with. I am deeply offended when it is attacked verbally and physically.

I do love my flag because it is the symbol of my country and represents the sacrifice of those who suffered and died in defense of the principles it was founded upon. I am deeply offended when it is denigrated and reviled.

I do love my family, although I am sometimes disapprove of the behavior and actions of its members. I am deepley offended when others attack and abuse them for serving their country.

I do love my Lady Raiders (see, I knew I could find link) even though I am sometimes disappointed in the outcome of a game, I honor their commitment and effort.

If this makes me a right wing wacko, Sue me!



[This message has been edited by elfdenmom (edited 03-03-2003).]

[Row6Seat10]

ESPN conducted a poll on Toni Smith here are the results.
http://espn.go.com/ncw/news/2003/0303/1517193.html

[Cyclones Rule]

For those who didn't see the show a transcript of show can be found at

http://sports.espn.go.com/tvlistings/s/weeklyotltranscripts2003.html

[OhMandy]

Since when is it unpatriotic to express an opinion? I am tired of people saying that she is disrespecting the flag. Guess what people, it's a piece of cloth.

Are you clueless or what? Our flag isn't a piece of cloth. Just like the Statue of Liberty isn't a piece of metal.

I take serious issue with the argument that soldiers died for the flag. No, they died defending democracy, freedom and the Constitution.

You right soldiers died defending democracy, freedom and the Constitution that is symbolized by our FLAG!!!!!!!!!!

[CyRox98]

That's right, only people who disagree with Toni Smith's right are entitiled to an opinion. Silly me, I forgot.

Plus, learn how to use the "reply with quotes" feature. It will make your post easier to read.