What the hell is this?

[OhMandy]

If I were the coach I would kick her off the team. Remember Eddie Robinson famed football coach at Grambling had all his players stand at attention during the National Anthem during the 1960's. Even though in the South, blacks were treated like crap.

You don't have to agree with what we're doing. But you sure as hell should respect this country, our flag, our national anthem, and most of all YOUR fellow Americans who were killed on Sept. 11th.
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaw/news?slug=ap-manhattanville-mountstmary&prov=ap&type=lgns

Manhattanville player drawing protests


February 22, 2003
NEWBURGH, N.Y. (AP) -- A college basketball player who turns away from the U.S. flag during the national anthem was jeered by flag-waving students at a road game, even while she was on the bench.

Toni Smith, a senior at Manhattanville College, was booed at Mount St. Mary at a game Thursday night.

Smith is protesting ``that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power.'' She has turned away from the flag all season.


Before Thursday's game, the Mount St. Mary student government handed out small flags before the game. More than 500 people filled the small gym, and jeered Smith at every opportunity.

At the end of the game Thursday night's game between Manhattanville and Mount St. Mary's, the crowd sang ``God Bless America.''

When Manhattanville played at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy on Feb. 11, more than 300 flag-waving midshipmen greeted Smith with chants of ``USA'' and ``Leave our country.''

When Smith picked up two fouls in the first three minutes and was benched, the crowd chanted, ``We want Toni,'' according to The Journal News.

``For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag,'' Smith said in a statement released Thursday.

Manhattanville President Richard Berman said he told Smith ``what she's doing is courageous and difficult.''

[JohnHenry]

I think she's allowed to believe what she wants, and act accordingly as long as she's not hurting anyone. I think the behavior of the crowds toward her was more reprehensible, immature, and un-American. This is a free country, no? Where is it written that someone should have to salute something they don't believe in saluting in order to play competitive sports? I say let her alone. What's the big deal, anyway?

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-22-2003).]

[OhMandy]

What's the big deal, anyway?

Hey John Boy do you ahve a clue? Let's see there are HOW many soldiers over there now ready at a moment's notice to go to war? How many soldiers are here protecting us from further attacks? Do you want to wait around until those bastards launch an attack with nuclear or bio weapons? Would you like America to be the target of those attacks? Do you not remember what those bastards did on Sept 11th?

Yes you do have a right to protest. But there are better ways to protest. Even though on this subject, all you pinkos are wrong.

[JohnHenry]

Woah, there cowboy - let's not get personal. I happen top disagree with the young lady in question, but I think you may very well be jumping to conclusions about her reasons anyway. I see nothing in her statement disrespecting victims of 9/11, nothing about Iraq or our troops. In this country, the bottom line is that she has a right to think what she wants and act accordingly, so long as her actions do not bring harm to others. I don't think her turning away from the flag hurts anyone - not our troops or the families of 9/11 victims. One is not obligated to agree or even consent to our government's policies as a prerequisite to supporting our troops or the victims of the 9/11 tragedies. You seem to be reading things into this article that are not there, but fit your own pre-concieved notions about those who disagree with you about U.S. policy. Not an effective way to argue a point.

Kicking her off the team for her political beliefs is something that would be un-American, in my view - Not to mention grounds for a lawsuit. I say let her be. Mercilessly persecuting someone for their political beliefs is also a waste of time and energy, as well as a sign of being insecure in your own beliefs. If you are confident that she is wrong, then you have no need to jeer or otherwise attempt to humiliate her during a BASKETBALL game, for heaven's sake.
And I think we should probably nip this thread in the bud, if possible. No faster way to ruin a friendly BBS than getting mired in political arguments.

http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/nu.gif in the boneyard...

[MsProudSooner]

Let's look at this another way. If you were a coach, would you want one player drawing attention to themselves in this manner, no matter what the reason?

It doesn't matter what her cause is, she is putting herself and her personal issues ahead of her team. There are much more constuctive ways to make a point. Her behaviour is more immature than courageous, in my opinion.

[DBLTFarmer]

Thats what makes this country great!!! She has the right to protest and to say anything she wants. However, if she's gonna be a public figure she should expect the ridicule that she is going to get. Afterall, those fans have freedom of speech also!!

[ChipperF1]

It doesn't matter what her cause is, she is putting herself and her personal issues ahead of her team. There are much more constuctive ways to make a point. Her behaviour is more immature than courageous, in my opinion.

I would agree with that here. While I do agree with her cause I don't agree with her tactics.

At the same time I don't agree with the jingoism I saw at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy when she played there. I went to that game, and the action of the USMMA students made me ill.

It wasn't so much showing support for our country in a troubled time. I 100% support that, it was a number of ugly and vile comments I heard from some of the students attending the game. I found it akin to what JohnHenry said. It was decidedly unamerican in my view.

If I where the head coach of the team, I would ask her to ceast and desist. There are better ways of protest. But I do respect that her teammates, even if they don't agree are standing with their teammate.

There was a point before the start of the USMMA-Manhattanville game where one of the USMMA player started arguing and yelling at Toni Smith. Smith's teammate had to form a column to protect her, and the USMMA team? Maybe one or two got in the middle and pulled their teammate away.

If I'M the Merchant Marine coach, I'm benching that kid.

I'm agreeing with JohnHenry way too much lol! Detente with the Longhorns lol! http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

Oh by the way Mandy? I believe the correct term is "pinko commie" http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

[JohnHenry]

"She has turned away from the flag all season."

"Before Thursday's game, the Mount St. Mary student government handed out small flags before the game. More than 500 people filled the small gym, and jeered Smith at every opportunity.

So she's been doing this all year, but it wasn't a big deal before Thursday's game, when the MSM students decided to turn her into a cause celebre by way of their little display of spontaneous patriotism. I don't think she asked to be a public figure - she was turned into one by people who paid way too much attention to her simple and harmless protest. If she doesn't want to salute the flag, I see no reason why she has to, and no reason why bball crowds need to make a huge deal out of it. I see no reason (other than hubris) to draw so much attention to ONE person for simply turning around when the anthem is played.

Hell, I see plenty of people at sporting events who don't stand at attention for the anthem, for whatever reason. Should we jeer and call out every one of them? Honestly, in the end, what the hell does her reverence for the flag(or lack thereof) have to do with playing basketball? Who cares, for chrissakes?

I think it's the wrong forum for her protest as well, but i'm not gonna stand up in a gym, draping myself in groupthink while making a public ass of myself because of said disagreement. Sure i'd have a "right" to, I suppose, but it's got nothing to with the game, and that's what I go to watch.

BTW, UMMA lost badly. MSM won by 2.
http://www.usmma.edu/athletics/article.asp?id=1113

No story found on the MSM game.
So actually, I stand corrected. It was our friends at the UMMA who first saw fit to bring Ms. Smith to the public's attention.

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-22-2003).]

[Bob_Ballew]

Is she a citizen of the United States? To turn her back on the flag during the national anthem is pitiful! I don't care what her reason may be. She ought to deal with whatever her issue is in another venue, not at the beginning of a basketball game!

[Bobcat4956]

I happen to respect what this young lady is doing. She is STANDING up for what she believes in. I respect that. I also happen to agree with her about this country's priorities. One of the things that is supposed to make this a great country is our freedom of speech and expression. She is simply exercising that right. Where would we be without those who had the courage to stand up while most others disagreed with them, i.e. Martin Luther King, et al.

[Bevo]

I think perhaps she should go seek professional playing opportunities in Iraq after graduation. That might give her a different perspective on governmental priorities and quality of life issues here in the USA.

[JohnHenry]

I think you folks are over-reacting. Read her statement. It says NOTHING about loving Iraq or hating the flag or anybody or anything else.

And have you nothing to say about the shameful treatment she received? I am amazed at how much outright hate and derision is being heaped upon this young woman - and for what? None of you has the foggiest notion what she actually thinks about Iraq, 9/11, or anything else for that matter. You sound reactionary in the worst sense of the word.

What is most disgusting to me about the whole affair is that likely the vast majority of "fans" at those games probably don't give a damn about women's basketball - most of them probably showed up with the express purpose of jeering and intimidating someone who had the temerity to take an unpopular stance. Their behavior reflected very poorly upon their schools and their respective student bodies, in my opinion.

[DBLTFarmer]

If she chooses to turn away from the flag that is her perogative and her rights. Thats a great freedom that she has. However, those people or fans have the right to show up for the game and yell at her. That is their perogative and their right. Thats a great freedom that we have as fans.

She feels that she is right and just in her protest. She must also remember that their are always consequences for her actions. In this case maybe she should expect it.

She's on a basketball TEAM, and her actions are not only have consequences for her but her team.

[35TangoTango]

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to know the difference between George Bush policy and the American Flag and National Anthem.

The attitude that if the present government is not doing what one wants, one will disrespect all American traditions is selfish and infantile in the extreme. She is getting jeered and booed because she is sending the wrong message - one that is offensive in the extreme to many people.

[ChipperF1]

"between George Bush policy and the American Flag and National Anthem.

But many American do equate each as one in the same. Even our President said, "If you are not with us, you are against us."

"She is getting jeered and booed because she is sending the wrong message - one that is offensive in the extreme to many people.

This is where I disagree. I don't think her message is wrong nor offensive. I'm in agreement with it. The way she communicating it, is my only problem. It wouldn't be my way.

Again, I find myself in lockstep agreement with JohnHenry. This kid didn't say she didn't love the country or whatever, in fact the inference I get from her statements is that she does love her country. She doesn't agree with some policies the nation is undertaking right now.

Now the forum she chose to voice her displeasure wouldn't be the forum I'd choose, however again, she didn't do anything overly demonstrative. She didnt disrupt the event. If anything is was a visual but silent protest. It was in the same vein as say a Tommie Smith-John Carlos-Mexico City 1968 type demostration. It was solemn, silent and dignified in my view.

It's interesting that loud disruptive elements of the whole affair where the opposition to her. Again, I was there, I saw what happened. It was bad. The reaction to it I could see in a totalitarian, groupthink society, not in the United States of America.

And the mere fact that schools where handing flag out to me sent a bad message. I didn't agree with that, nor did I agree with a bunch of fans just coming to the game more in a bombastic display of jingoism and less to support their ballclub.

I go to a good number of small college games, and a crowd of 500 is above what many of these schools usually get. We're talking Division III here. And again, JohnHenry has it right on. A good number of people went to these games more to jeer somebody than cheer somebody. I heard fans as this games yelling that this girl "Loves Saddam" and "Leave our country."
One fan three seats down from me yelled. "LEAVE MY COUNTRY!" and a bunch of obscenities.
I looked at the fan and said calmly and said "excuse me, son. It's her country, too."
Now my friends who took me to the game were in agreement even though they felt the player in question was wrong. Yet they we civil. They did yell and scream at all the ruckus, they did cheer on some fine plays. It was a very good game, even through all the fans jeering, etc.

I'm sure we're all tired of this thread, but I'd like to remind each of us about something. Whether we agree or not. We are all Americans. In a very contentious time, we need to remember that and remain civil, no matter what side of the issue we stand on.

On the main issue of the day, I know I'm in the minority yet will remain civil to the other point of view even if I disagree with that point. I would hope all Americans right now would do the same. Lets respect each other.

President Richard Nixon once said, "A foreign power cannot embarass America, only Americans can do that."

What I saw at that ballgame that night in response to a dignified if flawed protest, was embarassing to this American.





[This message has been edited by ChipperF1 (edited 02-23-2003).]

[This message has been edited by ChipperF1 (edited 02-23-2003).]

[OhMandy]

I love this quote by Chippy:

"I'm sure we're all tired of this thread"

You know if people were tired of this thread, the best way to stop this thread is by not posting. But since you insisted on posting and continueing this thread, I'll do the same.

The war on terror is much different than Vietnam. During Nam we were fighting the spread of communism. There wasn't an attack on US soil.

Now we are dealing with scum who do not care about lives. They want to use the power they have to kill as many Americans as possible. I don't care what happens to them or their countries. If it were up to me, they would be parking lots right now anyways. For anybody to protest this is wrong.

When I go to ucla games, there's a federal building where the pinkos protest. I usually flip them the bird. Though I wish I could run their asses over with a hummer. Just kidding, well kind of. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif Anyways they have the right to protest. And I have the right to respond. We're both responsible for our actions.

This girl is wrong in her way of protest. Because she is, she is subjecting herself to any and every response. If she hates living in the US so much, she should go to Iraq and play basketball.

[Bobcat4956]

Unfortunately, from the tone of these posts, I can fully understand why most of the world views the United States as a greedy, arrogant culture. Iraq and Al Queda (?) are not one in the same. Again, I applaud this young lady for having the courage to stand up for what she believes in. George Bush is an idiot.

[Beerman]

Actions speek louder than words folks.

This player can say who and what she is or isn't disrespecting all day long.

But turning her back to the Flag of the United States of America does just that. Kinda like burning it. This country gives her the freedom to say whatever she wants. That she chooses the very symbol of THAT freedom is not only ironic but it is also what IS so very offensive to many.

I'm not exactly sure what the Merchant Marines are but it is not difficult to understand why they might find these actions offensive.

[swok34]

Though I have absolutely no desire to discuss politics at any time, I certainly don't at this time of the year.....but,

didn't the Supreme Court rule a few years back that it was within one's rights to burn an American Flag?

[carolann]

The young woman says, "For some time now, the inequalities that are embedded into the American system have bothered me. As they are becoming progressively worse and it is clear that the government's priorities are not on bettering the quality of life for all of its people, but rather on expanding its own power, I cannot, in good conscience, salute the flag,''

The statment has no mention of war, terrorism, or ‘911’. While people focus on war, many other important things are happening in our country that will have effects on us all, perhaps for many generations to come.

I view this young woman’s protest as dignified and important. It is important for the young woman to find a way to stand up for her beliefs. It is important for the rest of us to know that different viewpoints do still exist in our country. On an individual level, I believe that if a person does not in some way stand up for what she believes, she begins to lose her self-respect and begins to live in fear. In a community context, when people cannot express their opinions without fear, then the greatest threat to our freedom is truly from within our country and not from without.

I don’t find where the young woman refuses to take responsibility or “to suffer the consequences” of her actions. She has found a way to express her dissent. Her actions are effective because they have resulted in other people talking about issues, and we hope, listening and thinking as well.

On the issue of war, not saluting the flag, not supporting the government, being against the attack on Iraq - none of these have to show disrespect to the military. I have a high regard for the men and women who will go to war when the government says war is necessary. The treatment of Vietnam veterans by those who supported as well as by those who opposed that war has been disgraceful. I think it the greatest sin for the government to send those men and women to war for anything other than defense from outside attack. The question is: Is the planned attack on Iraq (and thus the destruction of another country, the killing of Iraqi men, women, and children, and the killing of Americans) a necessary act of self-defense; an act of aggression motivated by greed, love of power, ideology or some other dispicable motive; or a well-meant but completely misguided act? To dare ask the question, does not make me un-American.


[This message has been edited by carolann (edited 02-23-2003).]

[Bevo]

Lest anyone misunderstand my earlier post, please feel free to substitute "Canada", "Mexico", "China", "Germany" or any other country for "Iraq" in my statement. Opportunity abounds in this country more than any other. Each person is free to better themself and create their own opportunities - that is not the responsibility of the government. To view it as such is to limit yourself.

I fear that the culture of our country has grown to revere and laud the act of protest more than the freedom and greatness of our country which allow the act itself. Any critical evaluation of the merits of the reasons for protest is viewed as "reactionary", which is an easy label to throw around. Idiot is another.

Oh great, now we Longhorn fans are disagreeing among ourselves. And with such an important week ahead of us, too. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[Bobcat4956]

Well said Carolann!!!

[JohnHenry]

In reply to:
I think perhaps she should go seek professional playing opportunities in Iraq after graduation. That might give her a different perspective on governmental priorities and quality of life issues here in the USA.

Pardon me if I found that to be more "reactionary" than a "critical evaluation". http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

At any rate, your last statement seems rather obtuse. You seem to imply that it is more important to - I don't know, give thanks and praise for our 'freedom', or something - rather than exercising it. What's the point of having it, then? The act of speaking out &/or expressing one's beliefs is, in itself, a celebration of the freedom you speak of.
I mean, is it also more important for us to just TALK ABOUT what a great democracy we live in, or is it more important for us to get involved, become informed, and VOTE?

In reply to :
Each person is free to better themself and create their own opportunities - that is not the responsibility of the government. To view it as such is to limit yourself.
Not sure what this has to do with her statement; I don't think she's protesting the government for not creating more opportunities for her in particular - that would be a bit selfish, I agree. Seems that she disapproves of what she sees as our governments priorities. In this country, the government is beholden to the people - not the other way around. And the purpose of any democratically elected government should be to promote peace & prosperity for all its citizens, and as much as possible to people around the world.(I'm not making this stuff up or anything...it's all written down much more eloquently on a parchment somewhere...). In general, I feel that is what our government TRIES to do, most of the time.

This young lady feels otherwise. That is her right, and it's no skin off my nose if she does, nor is it any skin off yours if she decides not salute a flag that she FEELS is being used for nefarious purposes and not representing the principles / ideals that she holds dear.

Ironically, of course and as usual, the people who got their jockeys in a wad about this to begin with have only served to elevate this young woman's little bit of dissent into a national story, inevitably being debated across the country and all over boards like this one. Had the Merchant Marine kids taken the high road and just ignored Ms. Smith, she might never have become a symbol of dissent or a cause celebre for many a protester, as her story will no doubt be splashed across the media very soon. Their treatment of her has given her publicity, a platform if she so desires it, and advanced her cause more than hindered it. Nice going, sailors.

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-24-2003).]

[This message has been edited by JohnHenry (edited 02-24-2003).]

[DBLTFarmer]

This has been in interesting collection of opinions. While I support a persons right to protest a right of free speech a person still has to act responsble in their protests and what they say.

To go into a place such as the US Merchant Marine Acadamy and turn your back on the flag is not a good or responsible thing. These are people who are probably very supportive of the US Navy and Coast Guard. They are probably a group of people who are very supportive of our government.

Then you must factor in that we are in a time of high emotions and to some extent high patriotism. With 9-11 still fresh on our minds, the concerns of war in Iraq, and the recent space shuttle tragedy peoples emotions are high and could be easily angered by citizens that turn away from our flag.

Her actions have consequences. She should expect the kind of reception she received at the Merchant Marine Acadamy and in other places. If I go out into the middle of the Texas Tech Campus and protest against the war then I would expect other students to yell, laugh and make snide remarks. She should expect the same.

Although we are a country that may be divided by the thought of war, I think we are all still basically patriotic and will salute our flag.

[DBLTFarmer]

John Henry,

Its not the people who got their panties in a wad that brought this girl to the limelight. Its the press selecting stories. True it might not have made it to the press as quickly if she werent booed but it would have eventually made it to the press. Just imagine what would have happened if it were a male player at a premier division 1 school.

[OhMandy]

Well somebody responded to her.
http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaw/photo?slug=1046038340player_protest_xsr333&prov=ap

Hey look, I would love it if we could end terror with just peace talks. But face it we're dealing with people who are radicals. They don't care about life. They want to kill as many Americans as possible. War is the only way to fight terror.

[elfdenmom]

The Merchant Marines are more than just supportive of the Navy and Coast Guard. They are in harm's way! Who do you think transport the supplies, material, and fuel to our troops in times of danger? They are a part of every action and deployment we take part in.

We go to the Maine Maritime Academy every summer when my husband teaches how to make miniatures. You should see the plaques with the names of all their graduates who have lost their lives in every engagement since WWII. Some of the more recent plaques have names of murders committed by our "allies" citizens when they are on shore leave on their annual cruise.

Frankly I don't have a problem with their taking offense at a demonstation which supports Hussein and trashes the US.

[This message has been edited by elfdenmom (edited 02-24-2003).]

[FeFiFoFum]

OhMandy, if you could look past your own rhetoric for two seconds, you might have the chance to check out the First Amendment and the freedom it gives all Americans to speak their mind. It also allows us the freedom of not being forced to believe in something we don't agree with. It's the same freedom that allows this woman to make a peaceful, non-violent statement against US policy and allows you to call anyone who disagrees with you a "pinko" who better look over their shoulder so you don't run them over in your Hummer (just kidding!). I know who I'd rather have on my team.

ps. And who are you, anyway? Ollie North? "Pinko" and "Commie" left the national lexicon when Nixon gave the two finger salute on his way out the door. Next thing you know, you'll pull out "Feminazi" or "Liberal" to try to make your point.




[This message has been edited by FeFiFoFum (edited 02-24-2003).]

[OhMandy]

FeFiFoFum

Please get a clue. I never said she didn't have the right to protest. She does. BUT there are better ways for her to protest. Disrespecting the flag is just plain wrong. Why? Too many people have died fighting for that flag and what it stands for.

I sure as hell wouldn't want to fight a war with you, since you'd go to the other side like BeneDICK Arnold.

elfdenmom

Please try and keep your racist views out of here. I find your use of " by our "allies" citizens" very wrong. BTW wasn't it a "real" American named tim mcveigh who blew up the federal building in OK back in 95?

[This message has been edited by OhMandy (edited 02-25-2003).]

[35TangoTango]

Oh, Mandy is totally out of line here! Posts that consist of nothing but infantile name calling of other posters have no place on this board!

Hoopscoop, PLEASE delete!

[elfdenmom]

Racist views? Didn't know I had expressed any. As I recall, the last place the Maritime Academy cadets were jumped, beaten and knifed was Le Havre. I haven't a clue what race the attackers were. I figured they were French, but I wasn't aware that was a race.