Can it get too popular?

[GoggleGuy]

A philosophical question, more than anything.

We as women's basketball fans love the fact that (despite our own team's sucesses or failures) the sport as a whole is growing. Within the past few years, attendence is up, more games are televised, newspapers have moved women's basketball to the front of the sports page instead of inside the back cover. You'll even see the occasional Sports Center highlight. It's fair to say that WBB has caused a change in college athletics as a whole; there used to be two big sports. Now there's three big sports. It's a lot easier to be a fan of WBB than it is to be a fan of most college sports. You really can't turn on the women's soccer game on the radio or catch the gymnastics coach's weekly interview program.

My question is, can it get too big?

There are certain luxuries as women's basketball fans that we've grown accustomed to. For the most part, we can walk up to a ticket booth 30 minutes before tipoff and buy as many tickets as we'd like, all at a cheaper rate than men's sports. This is something that really comes in handy when you want to visit your favorite team on the road (unless the road trip is to Wichita State this season, that's another matter.) You're not on the waiting list for season tickets. You don't have to donate gobs of cash to the Athletic Department to get a decent seat. Your favorite player isn't going to stay for two years and then leave for the pros.

We've got a pretty good thing going here. It has all of the advantages of a major college sport without significant disadvantages.

But what if these trends continue? What if it keeps getting bigger?

Tickets will be the first problem. Season ticket prices will continue to climb, and more schools may require PSL purchases. (I really do feel bad about that, Tech.) Here at OU, in the past couple of years, general public season tickets have doubled in price. That trend can only continue. Getting tickets on the road will be harder and harder to do.

Will act more like prima donnas and less like student athletes? Will academics become less and less a concern?

Will those of you who are fans of really small programs (in terms of fan and department support) like Nebraska and Kansas be pushed out of the way by bandwagoneers?

I'll admit, it sure would be a great problem to have, but having too much interest might be a problem someday. We'll lose some of what makes the sport great now.

* * * Incidentally, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I'm in may last year as an OU student, and this is the third season I've been going to women's games. A heckuva lot more fun than football, if you ask me. I'm one of the guys in the labcoats at the bottom of the west stands, and I'm friends with occasional poster LabcoatGuy, who took the better user name.

[swok34]

I'm one of the guys in the labcoats at the bottom of the west stands

I wondered as soon as I saw your user name........weren't you shooting free throws a couple of weeks ago?

Welcome to hoopscoop, we sure need all the http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/ou.gif fans we can get.

I think at Connecticut, you have to donate at least $1000 just to be in line for season tickets. I was amazed at the amount of donations that pour into their program. By the same token, look at Tennessee, I don't think the same thing is true as far as season tickets and booster donations are concerned.

I'm not sure that OU will be able to get away with an increase next year, our attendance is not what it was last year...or it may be close, but it has not exceeded. I've heard Sherri implore the folks that bought tickets to see Caufield, Dales, Ross to use those tickets, because these young kids need all the support they can get.

[HuskerFan86]

I think at Connecticut, you have to donate at least $1000 just to be in line for season tickets. I was amazed at the amount of donations that pour into their program.

This is the reason that UConn womens basketball makes a $2 million profit every year. I know at Nebraska that womens basketball is by far the most costly sport (I think it loses about 2 million/year) and that even if the program could break even it would be a major plus...

[DblT81]

Excellent topic and analysis.

I don't think it can get too popular. There will be negatives and the bothersome stuff will increase. To me the positives out weigh everything else.

I am almost embarrassed to admit today the lengths I would go to attempt to hear the current score of Tech games over a radio broadcast that was far out of range. If you really concentrated, you could make out through the static the announcer's words occasionally enough to get a score. (There are 4 major tools that have made human civilization what it is today-the wheel, the printing press, internet radio and TIVO. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/biggrin.gif ) The rising popularity of the game and technical advances have made it possible for me to listen to every game that I cannot attend.

A full house at the USA makes for lousy parking and traffic, but oh! what a wonderfully fun experience it is to be involved in the game making it loud and roudy... even if you are cheering for your team to beat Valparaiso. If the game wasn't so big in Lubbock, I could sit courtside behind the bench in calm and peaceful bliss listening to shoe squeeks on the hardwood echo in an almost empty building. But it wouldn't be near as much fun as sharing it with 9,000 of my closest friends. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

I get to read well written original articles about my favorite team or players by sportswriters who are good enough to work for major newspapers or broadcasting companies. No longer are they just covered by the local AP beat writer who doubles as the area agriculture reporter.

And maybe best of all for me, my kids think college is cool because they've been on campus so many times and they look up to the players. I'm grateful Natalie Ritchie is more an idol to them than some half dressed teen who sort of sings.

I'm also greatful the game is attracting young fans like yourself.

[JohnHenry]

Along with being a great event to take the kids to. I wouldn't take my kids to a football or men's bball game if you paid me to. People seem to lose all sense of decency when they walk into a big-time college stadium or arena.

Heck, even at the women's game vs. Tech last week, I nearly had to go upside the head of a couple of male students who couldn't see fit to watch their filthy mouths in a place where there were obviously hundreds of children roaming about. I scream my head off and root for the Horns, as does my 5 year-old daughter, but I don't think it's necessary to act like a jackass to help your team out.

Opposing fans also tend to be much more cordial and hospitable at women's games, too. I had a very civil exchange with some Tech fans about - gasp - basketball, and recommended a couple of restaurants in Austin when they inquired.

Yes, i'm a little worried about losing all the good things about the women's game. The cheap tickets sure make it easy to bring the whole family.

[swok34]

I think women's basketball fans are a completely different breed of folks, thankfully.

I, too, enjoy speaking to fans of other teams....and find out tidbits of information I don't know if the normal course of things.

The internet has been an awesome tool for women's basketball, like Dblt said....I can listen to my team no matter when or where they play. Three or four years ago, the local station in Oklahoma that carries Sooner sports, would favor the broadcasting of the men's game over the women's game...even cutting out at halftime or joining at halftime. The fans raised h*** and they found an alternate station.

When OU was drawing 750/1000, I sure didn't have much of a voice during basketball season. I think the "noise" factor and the attendance is an immeasurable tool in recruiting and how a team plays on the court.

I, also buy season tickets to the OU softball games, but try to find "indepth" softball information...even over the internet and you can forget it, it's just not available.

There's really not a win/win situation....in order for the game to grow, the fan sacrifices parking, money, bathroom lines, concession stand lines, close seats, bandwagon fans.....BUT without the growth of the game, women's basketball will never be self-supporting......

I'm with Dblt, I really want to see the game grow and I'm willing to sacrifice those aforementioned things in order for that to happen....and it sure is a lot of fun to have a loud crowd in the mix of things.

[Jimi]

GoogleGuy, great opening post. Welcome!

Now that we have established that WCBB fans, BIG 12 WCBB fans and HoopScoopers in particular are kind and gentile people I'm sure I can count on you and LabcoatGuy and SWOK to provide some kind greetings and cheers for my Wildcats as they visit your fair city. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif I, alass, can't attend to monitor your maners so I will have to leave that to your kind spirits. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

Ahhhwww, B.S., have fun and eat some popcorn for me. See ya at a future game.

Actually SWOK and other HoopScoopers are very kind to other fans but somehow I just don't think I can count her to cheer for KSU on Saturday.

In answer to your question I think the answer is no. The more popular the sport gets the more I will get to read about kids like Laurie Koehn in articles written by writers like Mechele Voepel. Wait a minute, are there other kids like Koehn and writers like Voepel? The people make the sport great and without it I would not get to know about them. I got to know Nicole Ohlde directly but I would never have met Koehn, Wecker, or Mahoney or Coaches like Deb Patterson or Sue Serafini without WCBB. It would have been my loss.

GO BIG 12 & GO WCBB! Grow and Grow some more.

[JohnHenry]

Agree that WBB fans tend to be more civil, Jimi. That fact alone will probably help to stave off many of those disadvantages to being a popular sport.

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[dem]

Originally posted by GoggleGuy:


There are certain luxuries as women's basketball fans that we've grown accustomed to. For the most part, we can walk up to a ticket booth 30 minutes before tipoff and buy as many tickets as we'd like, all at a cheaper rate than men's sports. This is something that really comes in handy when you want to visit your favorite team on the road (unless the road trip is to Wichita State this season, that's another matter.) You're not on the waiting list for season tickets. You don't have to donate gobs of cash to the Athletic Department to get a decent seat.

I'm afraid that we haven't enjoyed most of these luxuries at Iowa State for quite a while, since before I got here. (Except for the part about getting good seats for road games -- I LOVE that, that's the only time I can get to see our team up close!) Although you can still walk up at game time and buy low-price tickets, you'll need an oxygen tank and binoculars to properly enjoy the game from where you'll be sitting. And Kansas State fans have an even more extreme situation: for big games at Bramlage, you'd BETTER get your tickets in advance!

I'd have to agree with DblT81 and the others who said that sharing the experience with 9,000 or more like-minded fans more than makes up for the additional cost and inconvenience. The media coverage, local and national, is also a big factor. On the positive side, I think it will be quite a long time -- if ever -- before ticket prices begin to approach those for the men. I think that the "family-friendly" pricing and marketing is seen as a vital piece of the puzzle by the coaches and administrators, and that's not likely to change any time soon.

[Bob_Ballew]

It will never get too big!!!

I remember almost 30 years ago watching a game between Baylor and Wayland Baptist thinking it just doesn't get any better than this. I was in awe of Wayland's warm up drills. They stomped the Bearettes (that was before they were called Lady Bears) but I was entertained and enjoyed seeing well conditioned athletes play the game. Title IX certainly made great strides for the programs as we know them today. Things would certainly be different in my opinion without Title IX. TV coverage has been great over the last few years, but I think that HoopScoop has been a great promoter of the womens game in the Big XII. How many of us would pay as much attention to the other players without playing Hoopla. I know I am a homer for the most part when choosing a roster, but I know much more about some young freshman player from another state that I wouldn't have known otherwise. There may come a time when WBB leaps ahead of mens. It happened in womens figure skating and gymnastics. They both command more attention and media coverage at the Olympics than the mens competition.

I just want to see 8000 fans at a Lady http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/bu.gif game on a regular basis! http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Zo3157 (edited 01-31-2003).]

[labcoatguy]

So what would happen if attendance and ticket prices reached men's basketball levels? While a few conveniences would be lost, it would still be the same sport with all its excitement and speed. So what if you have to arrive an hour early for a game? (In the past, it hasn't stopped us, GoggleGuy.) The excitement of 10,000+ people screaming "airball" at an errant shot maker is always going to be thrilling.

One time i went to the annual New Mexico - New Mexico State mens game at the Pit in Albuquerque, and my seats were horrible. Next-to-top row, with a mezzanine section dangling overhead and straight up from the corner of the court. At least I had a seat (there were plenty of people perched on the rails). And I had a great time watching 18,018 people standing and clapping in rhythm at the beginnning of halves. And it was a pretty good game too.

In conclusion, you take the good with the bad.

And Swok34, I was the one that completely missed two easy free throws at that game. *sniff* i really suck! *cry*

[GoggleGuy]

I'll agree 100% with you folks that there's a big difference between the fans. There's more families, more appreciators of basketball, less violence. I hope that doesn't change (except that we get more of those people)

My biggest concern isn't related directly to the number of fans that show up. Yes, it'll be a pain to buy tickets ahead of time, and I'll have to pay a fair amount for season tickets for the local college team (for wherever it is that I wind up). I love it when the house is rocking.

While I saw the discussion about how WBB loses the most money some months back, I don't think it's going to stay that way forever. That's when the scary things will start. Once that line from "non-revenue" to "revenue" is crossed across the nation, bad things will follow. As of right now, we don't hear about improper boosters, recruiting violations, academic misconduct (a la Minnesota men's basketball).

We can talk about how bad salaries are in the WNBA right now, but one of the unintended benefits of that whole deal is that playing professional ball is viewed as a nice opportunity to continue to play for the love of the game. No one is spending any obligatory time in college, just waiting to make gazillions of dollars in the WNBA. LeBron James is not a part of our sport, and I'm *so* thankful for that.

I don't mind putting up with longer lines when leaving the parking lot, and I'll be happy to handle the hearing loss caused by louder gyms. I love seeing people that I drag with me to OU games come back all on their own, and if I have to start coming earlier and earlier to get my seat, I'll be happy to do it.

What I will mind is if women's college ball devolves into the shenanigans of men's ball.

(And yes, I'm pulling for the Sooners tomorrow. However, you'll hear our posse say "nice play" or "whoa" rather often to the other team. Not loud enough for them to hear it, of course. I hope some of the K-State Refs come along for the ride, though. I'd love to talk with some other rabid student fans. There's not enough of them around.)

(And no, swok34, that wasn't me shooting free throws during Texas Tech. That was Labcoat Guy. I hope to get my chance soon, though.)

[35TangoTango]

Great Topic!

We started following men's basketball 25 years ago. Wandered into the women's game 3 years ago. The first thing that struck me was that the makeup of the audience was a lot different. Mostly retired people and young couples with small kids. In truth, people on a budget looking for resonably priced entertainment. They came because it was cheap, and stayed because they liked the sport. Sadly, those people will eventually be priced out of the market, and their place taken by others who don't really care as much, but have more money to throw around. This is what happens when a sport becomes "in", socially.

I think the players will always be easier to relate to; by and large real students who would probably be in college somewhere, even if not for basketball. But they are changing - the shoe camps, and the national ranking of high school players (that we all look at) are, IMHO, not good for the players. I believe Coach Conradt had some interesting comments on the wild ride that was the recruiting of Tiffany Jackson, for example. I'm sure every coach in the conference has had similar experiences - and that will only get worse.

Another reason that we're all so civil to each other now is that we all feel a common bond in that we're not just rooting for a team, we're building a sport. I've heard Coach Coale talk about how bad she feels when we play really poor, like we did at KU, because in addition to trying to win, we're also trying to sell the sport to those who are seeing it for the first time! Will we all be so civil when support for WBB has "matured", and we no longer feel that shared responsibility?

When we became "fanatic" follower's of the men's game in '79, the crowds were just about what the women's crowds are now. We gave up our men's tickets this year because the $1700 (donor fees and ticket prices) a year we were paying for two seats was no longer enough to get us post-season ticket priorities. Besides, we found a better deal.

So enjoy it while you can. I'd say we have about 20 years before it all goes to pot!

[swok34]

I'm sure I can count on you and LabcoatGuy and SWOK to provide some kind greetings and cheers for my Wildcats

hahahaha.......I do like the Purple Powder Puff girls and do cheer for them, just NOT Saturday....you'll have to count on all those elementary school kids that will be in the house. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

And no, swok34, that wasn't me shooting free throws during Texas Tech. That was Labcoat Guy. I hope to get my chance soon, though.

I sure hope you did not take lessons from labcoatguy http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/biggrin.gif

I just wanted to say I really, really appreciate that you all go....aren't there 3 of you? I recall watching the news one night when the team arrived back at the LNC at 4 am after winning the West Regional......and who did I see, the Labcoatguys.

Oh, and by the way, Jimi......I ALWAYS applaud when the opposing team is being introduced......and I may end up saying wow a couple of times. I have a tendency to do that if I see a great shot or play, no matter if it's my team or not.....
but those striped zebra's just better be paying close attention,
they NEVER get any love from me...... http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by swok34 (edited 01-31-2003).]

[swok34]

As of right now, we don't hear about improper boosters, recruiting violations, academic misconduct (a la Minnesota men's basketball

Actually this does happen, and wasn't it the Minnesota women's team head coach two years ago that gave a player money...??
I do think this might be part of the terrority of growth that I will not welcome. Though as long as women's basketball continues to be a "family entertainment venue" as it seems to be throughout the country, hopefully it won't be a part of many programs.

I saw today that one could bet on the Connecticut/Duke game...
now, that I really do NOT want to see.

[Bball Girl]

When I first came to Tech, I convinced one of my colleagues to get season tickets with me...she waltzed in and informed the ticket agent that we wanted tickets across from the team bench about 10 rows high. The woman looked at us in disbelief and explained that those tickets had been in the same families for years..my friend was stunned...I was not.

This is my my third D1 school to work at and I've had season tickets at all of them. I was at Arkansas for Gary Blair's first two years with a program that hung in the middle of the SEC but I never missed a game..where we averaged maybe 2,000 a game. I worked on Ole Miss for a year with Van Chancellor as the coach where Old Miss was always in the bottom half of the SEC with maybe 1500 or less fans but I never missed a game.
I'm an Arizona grad and I follow the men's program a bit obsessively. If I had the energy, I'd probabaly have tickets for both the men and women.but the women will always be my first choice.

I will never forget walking into the NCAA NC in Kansas City and hearing 20,000 people applaud when 24 young women walked out on the court..it gave me chills and brought tears to my eyes. My mother who played HS basketball in the Lubbock area taught me to love basketball and she's always been a fan of Tech. The first time she was able to go to a Tech game with me and she heard the roar of the crowd when the team came out on the court...well we both were in tears. I will never forget watching my mom go up to Pat Summitt at a Midwest Regional at Arkansas, shake her hand and thank her for all she's done for women's basketball and watching the honest reaction of pleasure in Pat's blue eyes.

At this point I don't think it can get too popular. Right now, I think we have enough sensible coaches and ADs that understand the difference between women's and men's basketball that will help keep the programs sane. At Tech we hang around for Run N Gun ....so we get to see our women with their families and interact with their fans especially all the young girls and sometimes the young boys who seek them out. The men bb team usually makes an entrance after half time so every one can see them and they too hang around after the game strutting their stuff. But in most cases their arrogance keeps many away...on the other side even the shyest young girl feels comfortable going up to Nat..who is sure to not only take time to talk to her but usually gives her a hug. Erin is also wonderful with the young girls.

But even now we have a few like Pierson who can be arrogant with the fans...don't get me wrong I'm a fan...but she acts like it's her due (much like the men) and a chore much more so than players like Erin and Nat.

I was in Arkansas for New Years and without a computer even to listen to the game. I was trying to be good and but I kept anxiously checking ESPN for scores on the Rutgers game. Thankfully, Mom called me when she got home from the game to give me all the details.

It gets pretty sad when I have the radio on one game, the tv on another and I've got my computer going checking gametracker.

[PeachBasket]

I could really care less about the non-hoop aspects of mbb that turn a lot of people off. What has caused my interest in that game to wane is the precipitous decline in the importance of basketball fundamentals in mcbb and the NBA. As in tennis and volleyball, the sheer physical strength and speed of the top male athletes has drained the interest I take in the game as an aesthetic experience. In wbb, fundamentals, execution, simple X and O stuff like moving without the ball, ball rotation, etc still holds pride of place. I find more pleasure in seeing a well-run backdoor cut, hit with a bounce pass for an uncontested layup, than I do in some Vince Carter windmill jam. There's a reason that legendary UCLA mbb coach Johnny Wooden is today one of the huge fans of wbb.

[ChipperF1]

"My question is, can it get too big?"

I don't think it'll ever get "too" big in the sense that all of sudden you'll see womens basketball command multiple Sports Illustrated covers or get to be regular nightly faire on SportsCenter or even get to the point where backfield programs draw solid crowds.
For that kind of mass appeal, you'll need have to have a societal shift the size of Gondwanaland, and as human history shows, such shifts only happen a century or two at the time.

Will this game grow? Oh yeah baby. As I right this, I'm looking live at Duke's Cameron Indoor Stadium. One hour to game time of Duke-UConn and the place is fillin', the students are in a frenzy and that special buzz is in the air. You gotta love this stuff.

For myself, the biggest worries are sifting out the people who've been here from the start. I'm friends with a number of longtime UConn ticket holders who became former ticket holders because the price of PSLs and the donations was too high. When I do go to games I see that they have been replaced by people who don't have the same emotional stake. They've too often been usurped by the corporates and sophisticates who are drawn to the "in" experience of the whole deal.
Thankfully, there are other options. But even that in itself is why I don't see that major mass appeal. When people watch a Duke vs. UConn game they are seeing about the best it has to offer. For example, last week, I saw the chainsaw death match between Kansas State and Texas. A great game, one of the best in the nation this year between two fine ballclub. After that, going to Nebraska-Iowa State was like going from Filet Mignon to horse meat.
Imagine a casual fan, I know a lot of people who say this, "I like womens basketball, but watching a local college team is boring because they don't play like Connecticut or Tennessee. They just aren't as good."
Maybe that fan will come around maybe not. For myself, I like the smaller, less "big time" atmosphere of the game as it is right now. I hope even as it goes uptown that it can at least maintain some of that flavor. Impossible? Yes, but a guy can hope can't he.

What gives me hope is the kids themselves. Having covered the sport as a journalist, I find more often that not that the lasses have a surer perspective on it all than the lads do. For the women, they see the game as something honorable, beyond a means to an end. You can tell it in their play, and in the way most teams carry themselves. Granted, there are exceptions on both sides (Nebraska's women last year was a good example), but for the most part I find that men see the game as a birthright, something that they are owed. Women see the chance to play as an honor earned and worked for. My grandfather always told me something earned is something greater cherished. I really feel the kids cherish the game.

On the fans side, I hope the cordial tones never die away. We constantly talk of the decline of sportsmanship, but I find that we all feed in this decline in many ways. I am happy to see that in our small community, we are doing a part to reverse the trend.
And no, Scrappy, this isn't a "superficial love-fest". http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif
In my experience in watching the game, covering this game and being cheerleader for it, I've seen friendships forged because of it. People from all walks who would otherwise never interact, meet up and break bread after games, etc. This is one of the few groups of opposing fans that I'd want to meet, because they love their teams in what I call a proper manner. I would hope that this group of fans of that game would stay true to that.

Someone here said, "We have time before it all goes to pot."

But my question to you is, does it have to.
The one hope I have for womens sports is that maybe, just maybe, they can really work to get sports to were they should be. Is it my fervent, naive wish and hope that they do. I hope they make the money without being slaves to Almighty Dollar. May they say no to the overinfluence of the sneaker pimps. May they keep the perspective so that perhaps the womens game doesn't see a LeBrona James episode in a few years time.
May I never see a future sneaker commercial with a woman's basketball star saying, "I am not a role model."

I know I'm going to far afield now, but this topic has given up a lot of food for thought.

[JohnHenry]

A damn fine 2 cents, Chipper. Thank you. Thoughtful and elegant piece.

Here's hoping you continue to hold up your end of the game for a long time to come.

[ldlbfn]

Good thread. Here in Albuquerque at UNM, we did go over the 10,000 average for the year Saturday night. We had over 11,000 for Texas, 13,000 for a conference game with Air Force. Over 9,000 for a Thursday night(historically here the lower crowd nights-famlilies, kids, school the next day)in another conference game. Saturday night was the Pack the Pit promotion with remaining bench seats selling for $2-and there were 18,000 at the game. That pushed the average from 9600 to 10,280. One thing I hope doesn't change here is that the prices don't go up too much to price out families. I do think here they could be a little more(I pay at about 100 for a bench season ticket), but families are the majority of season ticket holders(I think about 7200 this year). If UCONN hit a couple bad years, would those people continue paying to keep those tickets?? I am realistic enough to know that if the team here starts playing bad and losing, attendance will drop. We've seen that at the men's games this year. And I also enjoy talking with fans of other schools. Had a very enjoyable time with the Texas contingent this year, Tech fans the year before, have met families of players who chose other schools over UNM and had nice conversations.

[dem]

Originally posted by ldlbfn:
I am realistic enough to know that if the team here starts playing bad and losing, attendance will drop. We've seen that at the men's games this year.

This has clearly been a down year for the Iowa State women so far, and yet attendance has not dropped off too much. (Official figures through first nine home games: 2001-2002: 9,864; 2002-2003: 9,086). New Mexico has had excellent fan support for several years now, and I doubt that there would be too much dropoff even with one or two down years. They are clearly one of the programs poised for a huge surge in attendance just as soon as they can crack the top 25 on a consistent basis.