ISU 82, Iowa 64

[mred]

This was closer than the score indicated. The game was tied early in the second half, but ISU pulled away through the end of the game. ISU was hurt by a lot of early turnovers, but they really cut down on them in the second half. Welle was in foul trouble for the first time this season. She sat out the last few of the first half with two fouls and picked up her third with about 16 minutes left. She picked up her fourth with around 10 minutes left and sat out 6 minutes or so. She fouled out with about 2 minutes left, but ISU played extremely well with her out which is really encouraging.

Even with foul trouble, Welle had 24 points and 17 rebounds. Lindsey Wilson broke her career high for the second time this season, scoring 29 to go with 8 rebounds and 5 assists. Tracy Gahan hit 4-7 threes for 14 points.

[CyFanRick]

mred, you are right, the game was a lot closer than the final score. It was a great game to watch. ISU will have to control the turnovers a lot better before the Big 12 season starts. I'm afraid that had it been Oklahoma or Tech that we played tonight, they would have captialized a lot more on the turnovers and we wouldn't have been able to get back in it. I don't want to take anything away from Iowa, they are a good team, but still not the caliber of some of the Big 12 teams we are going to have to face.

[dem]

No question, Iowa State still has a lot of work to do before going up against the top-ranked teams. They are still very vulnerable to hard-nosed, physical, man-to-man defense. It takes them too much of the game to make the necessary adjustments, and meanwhile they are giving up turnovers and struggling to find open shooters. Opposing forwards who can make jumpers from the high post have been making a killing on ISU's zone, and sharp-shooting guards who can cash in open looks from outside the arc are a persistent, serious threat.

Cizek and Cofield are not yet consistent scoring threats and still turn the ball over too much. Gahan fluctuates between brilliant and too-little involved. Fortunately, Lindsey Wilson has been absolutely spectacular and has come through every time the games have been on the line, which is darn near every game. She seems to be developing into one of the finest point guards in the country. Of the newcomers, Tracy Paustian has impresed me the most. She always has her head in the game and makes good decisions (her first-ever turnover was tonight!), is tremendously competitive, takes risks and makes them pay off, and has become a very consistent scoring threat from all over the court. Tonight was her first start and I expect to see more of them before the season is over.

[This message has been edited by dem (edited 12-13-2001).]

[CyRox98]

So nice to see things come together in the second half. Disappointing Angie fouled out, but as mentioned above, the team played well without her on the floor - something that rarely happened last season. Turnovers still need work. Although Cofield looked MUCH better than she did at Northwestern (8 turnovers by herself on Saturday).

On a personal note, it's so nice to see another Iowa senior class go out without having beaten ISU. Normally, I'm an Iowa fan as well as an Iowa State fan, but I don't care for Bluder. Didn't like her at Drake and I don't like her at U of I. Amazing how someone who is that successful at coaching is so bad at discouraging arrogance (as in Jenny Lillis) and so good at not encouraging class. One of the many things that makes me so proud to be an ISU women's basketball fan is that Fennelly expects his girls to be gracious losers AND winners and to not be obnoxious on the court or on the bench, no matter how good or bad a particular play may have been.

[DblT81]

Originally posted by CyRox98:
One of the many things that makes me so proud to be an ISU women's basketball fan is that Fennelly expects his girls to be gracious losers AND winners and to not be obnoxious on the court or on the bench, no matter how good or bad a particular play may have been.

Sorry CyRox98 but an ISU player AND ASSISTANT COACH were not *gracious* winners in the Big 12 post season tournament last season, making derogatory hand signs to mock Texas Tech's "Guns Up" signal. They were caught on TV along with, surprisingly, some elderly fans of ISU making the same gesture. Apparently some from ISU thought it was pretty funny to mock the team they were beating during a late time out in the game. I saw it as obnoxious behavior and was particularly shocked that an assistant coach would have done something so juvenile. Maybe Fennelly did take some action afterwards, or maybe he thought it was funny too.

[mred]

Originally posted by DblT81:
Sorry CyRox98 but an ISU player AND ASSISTANT COACH were not *gracious* winners in the Big 12 post season tournament last season, making derogatory hand signs to mock Texas Tech's "Guns Up" signal. They were caught on TV along with, surprisingly, some elderly fans of ISU making the same gesture.

One person's sacred cow is another person's hamburger. You have to realize that us in the Big 12 North rarely get to see Tech in person with more than a handful of Tech fans. I for one was astonished to see all these people waving fake guns in the air (using their fingers) and thought it was pretty silly. It may have been juvenile to mock it, but the whole thing seemed ridiculous to us.

There is, however, NO excuse for players and coaches to be doing this. I hope Coach F had a good talk with whomever was responsible.

[kate dawg]

Ha. This board is renowned for its lack of trash talk. Let the mud-slinging begin as I take up for my second-favorite Big 12 team, the Iowa State Cyclones.

wow dblT. are you seriously going to make this an issue? i mean i can't believe that we are so sensitive that we can't take some lively rivarly-type behavior for what it is...there's no reason to start calling the Iowa State program ungracious and unsportsmanlike. I think we all know that the Cyclones, Bill Fennelly and his staff are neither of those things, and if you think otherwise, you need to get caught up on your Big 12 women's hoops. I think if I ranked the behavior of Big 12 teams and their sportsmanship, ISU would be 1B right after my Buffs.

Let's recap the end of last season: Iowa State loses to Texas Tech, in Lubbock, 68-60 in the last game of the regular season. Tech, on the basis of that win, gets the 2 seed, ISU the 3. So you're telling me that ISU has no right to be pleased beating the two seed, avenging a loss from less than two weeks earlier, and gets to go defend their championship? So what if they did "guns up." It adds to the atmosphere. I've seen lots of teams do that when they actually get a lead on Tech. Speaking for my team, we haven't beaten Tech in years, and blew the game last year. I will say this: Rene Hanebutt thrusting her "guns up" in Mandy Nightingale and Nikki Weddle's face three years ago after every three pointer would be equally unsportsmanlike if we're going to compare evils. But you don't hear CU fans waxing on about how unclassy Tech players are.

Ask yourself this: Were you honestly offended that they were doing "guns up" or that they came from behind at halftime to beat your team in the semifinals of the Big 12 tournament by 11 and outscored your team by 15 in the second half? I think we all know the answer to that question. So unless this unnamed ISU player was flipping the bird or making another obscene hand gesture, I don't see a problem.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can't honestly believe that people are going to make an issue out of that...are you telling me no Tech player or fan or coach or staff member has ever done the famous "dead longhorn" when beating Texas? Let's stop being so sensitive people. It's just fun, and people get excited.

[This message has been edited by kate dawg (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Press]

For all of you old Big 8 followers, the whole hand sign thing is a throwback from the old Southwest Conference days. All the schools had their own thing and all still do even thought it's all split up, I think it's great to see, but I can understand why other schools make fun or don't understand what it means.

You're right, Hanebutt's trademark sign after every three point was a "gunz up", however, she did it all the time, not just against CU. You can also see Natalie Ritchie doing it and she's the most classy kid on the team; O'Neal did it last year, along with Pierson, Ayers, they all do it when they're pumped! I don't really think it's an unsportsmanlike thing to do, you just have to understand what it means to each team. You can pretty much bet that if Marsha Sharp felt that it even smelled of unsportsmanlike behavior, she would address it.

I'm sure there are quirks about ISU, CU and the other northern teams do that I don't understand, but if it's a tradition, so be it.

[DblT81]

Hey. I was just responding to CyRox who seems to think that ISU players don't throw a little trash at the opponent from time to time. I did not say ISU was a major offender. I just said they have their moments too and to say ISU is above reproach in the manner in which they conduct themselves is silly. We went through this same discussion last spring so I don't want to rehash. ISU players are good sports from what I can tell, but Taylor was not just holding up her hand in the guns up salute that is a tradition at Tech, but she, and the others, were holding it up to their foreheads in a gesture known to kids as the "loser" sign. So it wasn't just doing the Tech signal in a fit of happiness over winning, it was intended to be derogatory. IMO it was an "obscene" gesture to signal someone is a loser. That was one incident. Probably the only incident in the history of ISU wcbb. The ISU players are NOT bad sports. They have otherwise conducted themselves in a fine manner. But...they are not perfect and I wanted to counter CyRox's post that indicated ISU players were always gracious. I just wanted to point out one time when they were not. No big deal. I do not hate ISU players for it. I respect them and especially the coach. I thought I had issues with the coach after the game in Lubbock last year but after I watched the tape of the game, I realized and admitted that my criticism was unjust, that it was the TV people who caused the problem, not the coach. He is a hell of coach and a very good person, I am sure.

OK Kate, I didn't see the Iowa game, but what the Iowa players did that CyRox thought was so bad wasn't a little rivalry behavior? Is it OK for ISU to have a little "rivalry behavior" but not OK for their opponents to do so? Hannebutt's enthusiasm used to bug me too. I DID NOT SAY TECH WAS WITHOUT FAULT. I just responded to CyRox's particular comment. I did not intend to make this a "who is the worst team for trash talk and jestures".

Also Kate, you must not have read much of the posts in the spring. If so, you would know that, IMHO, Coach Sharp doesn't put emphasis on winning in the Big 12 tourney anymore, at least the past two years. I think Tech concentrates on the NCAA tourney. They were only after that first win to make it to the semifinals and not screw up the tourney seed. Don't assume you know what I was feeling after the tourney game with ISU.

I humbly apologize for besmirching the reputation of the Iowa State Cyclone women's basketball team.

[mred]

Originally posted by DblT81:
Hey. I was just responding to CyRox who seems to think that ISU players don't throw a little trash at the opponent from time to time. <snip> they are not perfect and I wanted to counter CyRox's post that indicated ISU players were always gracious.

That's not what he said. He said that Coach F expects his players to act with class and discourages such displays, not that ISU players don't ever slip up with regard to that.

I remember one game where Stacy Frese hit a three as time expired, despite the game being out of reach at that point. I don't consider this a horrible act, but I certainly don't think it's very sportsmanlike. Fennelly has really cracked down on this. Usually, when ISU is up at the end of a game and the shotclock is off, they'll hold it in backcourt and let time expire. Against Marquette, Bill yelled "No shot!" to his team even with a second difference between the game and shot clocks. This led to a shotclock violation turnover with a second left in the game.

This thread isn't so much about players being unsportsmanlike as it is about coaches discouraging it and doing something about it.

[This message has been edited by mred (edited 12-13-2001).]

[#1Big12Fan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DblT81:

Also Kate, you must not have read much of the posts in the spring. If so, you would know that, IMHO, Coach Sharp doesn't put emphasis on winning in the Big 12 tourney anymore, at least the past two years. I think Tech concentrates on the NCAA tourney. They were only after that first win to make it to the semifinals and not screw up the tourney seed. Don't assume you know what I was feeling after the tourney game with ISU.

Oh, so when Tech ISNT winning the conference tourney, like the last 2 years, they weren't just outplayed by Texas and Iowa State: it was that they just didn't care after their first win? ooooooook...sounds like someone is ASSUMING what coach Sharp was thinking http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/wink.gif

And since you commented on few elderly ISU fans mocking the gun. Who was it that was constantly shouting "BALL HOG!" whenever Lindsay Wilson touched the ball in the game last spring @ Lubbock?

I don't think there is a perfectly behaved program in womens basketball (or mens). Its all in the spirit of rivalries.

[Bevo]

Boy, I wish I had a dollar for every "dead Longhorn" hand signal that gets flashed when Texas is losing.

Quote [mred]:
One person's sacred cow is another person's hamburger.
That's classic!

[mred]

Originally posted by Bevo:
Quote [mred]:
One person's sacred cow is another person's hamburger.
That's classic!

I wish it were my own! http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif I adapted that from a great Mark Twain quote: "Sacred cows make the best hamburger."

[kate dawg]

Ha ha. Success! I love getting a rise out of folks on occasion.
Yes yes dblT you got sucked in to my trap of mudslinging. You should know that I've been posting and reading this board for awhile so if we're going to get snooty and ALL CAPS AND BOLD THINGS then let's not ASSUME that I am not up to date on the life and times of Big 12 hoop. Cheers to the #1Big12Fan on your response. I'm so sure people don't care about the Big 12 Tournament? Give me a break. If you go out in the first round it can kill your seeding...most people think that if OU hadn't lost to ISU in that championship, they would have been a 1, so please don't make excuses like "there isn't as much emphasis on the big 12" or whatever it was for losing the game.

Press-I knew it wasn't just against CU. I knew what it was, but i'm sure others appreciated the info. I was just saying i found it annoying just as others find Mandy Nightingale hanging her hand up in the air after a three-ball for 10 seconds annoying.

[elfdenmom]

Actually I think we are getting a little bent out of shape about trifles on this "guns up", "hook 'em horns", "gig 'em aggies", etc. business. Personally I don't take giving the signs or mocking as anything more than expressions of personal loyalty, recognition of a good play or drawing attention to a bad play. Has anybody here ever heard the words "air ball"?

[BigXII]

iowa state sure has gotten a little big for their britches. does anyone happen to know which of the big 12 teams has the worse all-time winning record? surpise, surprise, the same team that booed edwina when she won the mvp.

[ChipperF1]

C'mon now people. Lets not act like a bunch of waah-waahs. Can't we all just get along?

And y'all leave "Guns Up" alone. I like "Guns Up"!!!

[mred]

Originally posted by BigXII:
does anyone happen to know which of the big 12 teams has the worse all-time winning record? surpise, surprise, the same team that booed edwina when she won the mvp.

Well, duh! Everyone knows ISU stunk horribly before Coach Fennelly. ISU has 40-some conference victories all time before him, and 60-some since. ISU has been to 5 straight NCAA-tournaments, which are the only 5 times they've been there. They've had SEASONS where they didn't draw 12,000 fans, and once in the early 90s they made 15 threes total for the season.

There's typically no trash talk on this board. Let's keep it that way.

[This message has been edited by mred (edited 12-13-2001).]

[RaiderPower1]

I think what some of the Tech fans are saying is that it is not right for an assistant coach or player to be mocking a symbol from another team. These people are supposed to be role models and public figures. I mean when it was obvious that BF was cursing during the ISU @ TTU game, I found offense to it. Calling someone a loser is not any better coming from an assitant coach. Now as for fans mockery, I personally do not have a problem with an old person making a fool of themselves puting an "L" to their head. Heck I could give a rats *** as to what other fans have done in mockery of another team. When I went to the New Mexico game this year in Albuquerque, I was very impressed with the UNM fans. They were nice to us Red Raider fans and they were polite when Tech was being introduced. So there is my two cents FWIW. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif

[BigXII]

mred,
which one is the trash talk? iowa state has the worst win/loss record of all big 12 schools or iowa state booed edwina brown when she won the mvp. am i making something up?

[mred]

Originally posted by BigXII:
iowa state sure has gotten a little big for their britches.
There's your trash talk.

I'm officially done posting under this topic. We can agree to disagree on a lot of these points. This has turned into some strange discussion on ISU, and I really don't want to go here anymore. It certainly has nothing to do with the Iowa game.

Anyone want to move on to a new topic? I think this one has been exhausted.

[This message has been edited by mred (edited 12-13-2001).]

[CyRox98]

Originally posted by BigXII:
iowa state sure has gotten a little big for their britches. does anyone happen to know which of the big 12 teams has the worse all-time winning record? surpise, surprise, the same team that booed edwina when she won the mvp.

We booed because we felt the tourney MVP should have come from the team that actually won the tournament, not because Brown was not deserving. She probably WAS the best player thru all the games and it may have been too difficult for the voting committee to single out one ISU player since the three that made the all-tourney team contributed equally throughout. If you can't understand that reasoning, well I don't know what to tell you. It probably wouldn't make a difference anyway.

And DblT81, I'm not even going to bother to respond to anything you said in this thread. Thanx to mred and everyone else who was able to understand what I said (and expanded upon it). ISU is not perfect. They never have been, but neither has anyone else in this league. The fans are not always the most gracious either. It's easy to lose control and make an unfortunate guesture or comment in the heat of victory or defeat. I have done it myself and believe most people here have as well. What I said is my opinion - and it is valid, as is yours (even tho I don't agree with most of it). But ya know what? That's ok. You're free to read whatever you want between my lines as I do yours, but don't put words in my mouth.

[CyRox98]

...and yes, I think this topic is over also. Now that the person who started this whole thing (who, me?) has spoken his feelings, it's time to move on.

[CyFanRick]

Wow.......what a discussion that has had nothing to do with the topic! Well, like I said earlier, it was a great game to watch and ISU needs to control the turnovers a lot better before they get to Big 12 play. There, now how's that for staying on topic?
GO BIG 12
GO http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/isu.gif

[DblT81]

So you do not accept my apology?

Well for those doubters about Coach Sharp's philosophy on the Big 12 tournament, I didn't make it up. I read it in the newspaper.
http://www.lubbockonline.com/stories/031300/spo_031300058.shtml

Tech building toward NCAA tourney with change of emphasis from Sharp
By BRENT SCHROTENBOER
Avalanche-Journal
In a sudden and telling change of postseason basketball tournament strategy, Texas Tech head coach Marsha Sharp has re-evaluated her coaching philosophy with a plan to build toward a longer run in the coming NCAA Tournament.

The premise is simple: After two straight years of exhausting themselves in the Big 12 Conference Tournament, Sharp and Tech changed gears this year and lessened their emotional emphasis on the conference bracket last week in Kansas City.

"We wanted to build toward the NCAA Tournament and not toward the conference tournament," said Sharp.

"That's why we put a little less emphasis on the conference tournament this time from a coach's point of view. In the last couple of years, we felt like we kind of peaked in the conference tournament because we wanted to win it so badly."

In 1998, Tech "peaked" with a championship in the Big 12 Tournament before losing in the second round of the NCAA Tournament at home against Notre Dame. In 1999, Tech won the Big 12 Tournament for the second straight year before a third-round loss [to Rutgers] in the NCAAs.

According to Sharp, those losses and her experiences in the old Southwest Conference led her to make the recent change in coaching emphasis. Here's how it worked: Instead of focusing on the Big 12 tourney as an all-or-nothing opportunity, Tech looked ahead toward the Big Dance.

In basketball circles, some call it the Good Loss Theory: If you're going to lose a game in March, lose it in the conference tournament, thereby getting the kinks "out of your system" before the start of the NCAA Tournament one week later.

--------------------

This was from March 2000. Sharp repeated similar coments before the Big 12 tourney in March 2001.

[Bevo]

Originally posted by ChipperF1:
C'mon now people. Lets not act like a bunch of waah-waahs. Can't we all just get along?

And y'all leave "Guns Up" alone. I like "Guns Up"!!!




Guns up makes me sick. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/tongue.gif http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Bevo (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Press]

Spoken like a trun horn, Bevo. http://hoopscoop.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[cyfanatic]

OK, I was going to abstain from saying anything, but I just can't help myself. The whole "guns up" thing does seem a little silly when looking at the masses when they are doing it. However, I think we all got on the subject when we were talking about the arrogance of some of the Iowa players. (Namely, Jenny Lillis)I was at the game, and then watched it again later on tape, and Lillis hot dogged after nearly every call that went against ISU. More annoying, however, was the person or persons that kept whistling every time ISU got the ball. For those of you have it on tape, listen again...it's awful.